Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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SmokingPuffin

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauron View Post
there needs to be a way to preserve the feeling of "go in, don't expect to get out, make them suffer" without keeping the "hit Q, thing dies, now walk off" reality of her current tuning.
This sounds like a great idea to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauron View Post
1. Lower the base damage of Q, let it do more damage to minions. That way, she doesn't have a strong poke game or 2-button kill combo, but she can push her lane decently well to go roam. Also allowing her to clear monsters quickly would accomplish similar goals.
Seems okay. I don't know that Diana needs to have less poke, though. In my view, the problem case is her easily accessible burst damage from RR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauron View Post
2. Lower the cooldown for her vacuum. Buffing her main disruption ability will allow her to stick to targets, encourage her to remain close to multiple enemies, allow more procs of her passive, ease the need for an initial burst, and lean her heavily towards "fighter" as opposed to "assassin".
I think that if you're moving Diana over to a more sustained fighter, her stickiness must be improved. Changes to E are a natural candidate for this.

There is some danger that her E is the opposite of a pubstomping ability -- it's much better in coordinated team games with specific team comps than it is as a general ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauron View Post
4. Flatten the cooldown on her ult, increase the range by a bit, and slightly lower its damage. Basically, give her a more consistent "just go in now" button that has more room to become a "go in and poof" button when someone doesn't play her correctly.
I would want to rebalance her ultimate towards being more about sticking to the target and less about damage. I would suggest moving something like 50% of the damage from her R to her passive. I totally agree with the idea that Diana feels great when cleaving people with her moonblade and would like to emphasize that part of her kit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauron View Post
What would also be really great is having Iron come in here and talk for a bit about what his original vision was for Diana, and what play pattern he would consider to be ideal. Leona, for instance, has a really strong character that completely comes through in her playstyle. Diana should have that.
The word parrot uses most with Diana is "nihilistic". Putting any sort of escape skill on Diana is a big no-no. She's supposed to engage without mercy or remorse and die for her ideals, or at least try to do so.

I do feel weird about this new messaging on Diana. In the months after her release, Diana was heralded as a design triumph where everything just fell together and worked smoothly despite a tight schedule. In particular, I remember a compare and contrast between Diana's design cycle and Quinn's. I don't feel like Diana was warping the game excessively even when she was strong; at that time, the primary metagame shapers were Jayce and Elise.

I feel like Riot's opinion on what is and isn't toxic to good gameplay, or at least their messaging on this topic, is quite inconsistent and hard to predict.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-29-2014

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Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
Q is already an extremely reliable skillshot. it has a large width, moves very fast, and has an AoE explosion on the end. Making her not stop to cast it would accentuate this problem even more.

Thematics are important, but should not compromise gameplay.

(Part of the reason why the Q being so reliable isn't very good is because it enables her to go R->R right afterward extremely reliably to just kill someone)
Honestly her Q has never felt super reliable to me as long as my enemy stayed mobile but if that is how you guys feel about it I can't really change that. And sir you left the W and E out of the combo. It is not just Q R R :P


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IlyaK1986

Senior Member

01-29-2014

IMO the problem with Diana is that while there's so much talk about "counterplay this and counterplay that", IMO, it's *never* worked well in execution, because at the end of the day, if everyone has counterplay, then it's simply about "who has the LEAST counterplay". At the end of the day, it boils down to risk vs. reward, and the fact is that unlike the defensive steroids in the kits of superior tanks (Mundo's insane regen, Shyvana's defensive steroid, burnout speed boost, Leona's W, Renekton's healing, Nasus's ult), or the escapes of assassin's (Khazix jumping out on kill, Zed teleporting to shadows, Kassadin's riftwalk, Leblanc jumping in and out, Yasuo dashing away), all Diana has is a flimsy shield with no disengage. So she has no defense, and no escape.

So since she has no defense with very poor CC (she has one slow!), she can't really initiate like a Shyvana or Renekton, she can't really fight like a Jax, she can't really assassinate...

And it isn't that she conceptually doesn't have the kit for it, either. If you pump up the numbers on her high enough, then she'll be able to do the things she was designed to do--but as it stands, her shield has to be low enough that squishy who gets caught out by her can fight back (never mind the fact that if an assassin catches a squishy target out, that target is supposed to be deleted--hence the point of an assassin to begin with), her damage has to be low enough that she can't both initiate like a tank and blow someone up, and so on.

So basically, the problem with Diana is that she has all the weaknesses of several different roles (lack of damage of an initiator, lack of durability of an assassin), yet isn't good enough at any of the roles to ever justify picking her, when someone can pick a more specialized champ who actually fulfills the one role they need to be good at!

Need an assassin? Get Khazix, Zed, Leblanc, or Kassadin (if the Kassadin isn't banned =P).
Need a split-pushing tank? Get Shyvana or Mundo.
Need an initiating off-tank? Shyvana, Vi, Elise, Lee-Sin, probably a few others I'm forgetting.
Need an AP burst mage? Too many to list.

IMO there's nothing wrong with having a tanky assassin initiator--that is, a champion that trades an assassin's escape mechanics for durability, and sacrifices some of an initiator's hard CC for more damage, allowing her to have a unique role of being able to transition through the roles--initiate, pop a zhonya's, have her team follow up, then bopping a squishy in the middle of the chaos, but the issue is that if she were to be good at that, all of the nation of Bronzodia would be howling to the moon that they got jumped and squished by a beefcake assassin that they couldn't fight back against.

IMO, here's my attempt to make Diana better while allowing her to build in different ways without being too broken at any of them (hopefully).

Pale Cascade: have it scale with bonus health in addition to AP ala Sejuani flail or Taric heal. If she's going to be an initiator/tank, then at least allow people to itemize for that. Furthermore, consider giving the shield a bonus in proportion to the number of enemy champions in the vicinity. If you're the first in a team fight, you need to have a defensive steroid that recognizes the fact that you're taking fire from multiple people. Diana's little wet-napkin shield is absolute trash as it currently stands for someone that needs to take fire from multiple people.

Moonfall: *also* have it scale with bonus health, as part of her role of being an initiator tank.

Lunar Rush: have it reset on kill or assist, as part of her assassin role.

Crescent Strike: decrease cooldown by a second for every autoattack Diana lands.

Passive: IMO it should become active after three spells, not three autos, ala Sona power chord. Simply because...well...nothing else in her kit incentivizes Diana to build attack speed. So this is complete silliness IMO.

Basically, this would give her a very intricate pattern as an assassin (land Q, R, W, passive whack, E, Q, R, passive whack, and if they're still not dead, R them again, add in sheen-upgrade procs as necessary), while giving her a completely separate build path if she wants to be an initiation bruiser. E.G. as an assassin, you might go for something like a DFG -> Lich banana -> deathcap, while as an initiator, something like a Kennen build.

As for counterplay, the same concepts apply, really. The issue at the end of the day, is whether it's a DotA-like game (mistakenly get in range of targeted hard CC, get hit by one CC, another hard CC, flattened), or whether it's LoL (you need to take more risks to land your not-guaranteed damage enablers, so do your opponents), it's all about relative power.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-29-2014

So Riot, what happens if Lunar Rush isn't a Flash?

What happens if Lunar Rush is dashing rush forward during which she can still attack? (Like Tristana's rocket jump, along the ground.)

All of Diana's abilities now apply Moonlight. If Lunar Rush passes through a moonlit target, it is reset.

If Diana hits an enemy champion with Moonfall, Lunar Rush is reset.

Now Diana sweeps around the battlefield, maintaining her furious attack with semi-phasing skillshot dashes.

But since it's not an instant Flash, enemies may still have the ability to avoid her with skillful play.

Basically Riot, you need to be getting out of your 'comfort zone' of past 'formulas'. Because what happens? One champion is usually going to be better at executing that 'formula' than others.

Could this recommendation be OP? 'Mobility creep'? Maybe. But if you're not trying for difference and variety in gameplay, it's probably not going to happen.


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wolferer

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Senior Member

01-29-2014

I find Diana to be most interesting as an AP bruiser, since that is a niche that isn't really filled well currently. As an assassin, I think Akali is more interesting with her Twilight Shroud, and Fizz is more interesting with his untargetability and long range skill shot disable.

As pointed out, adding defensive itemization scaling on her shield amount (or even damage) would be a good start. You could buff bruiser Diana by giving her more value out of defensive itemization. This would also kind of parallel Leona's design, which is kind of cool.

To improve her capability as an initiator, why not have her E leave a lingering symbol on the ground that slows all enemies who walk into it, instead of just slowing enemies caught in the initial blast? That way, if you initiate on a lone target, you still have a zone-control aspect when his teammates come to stop you. This would make the skill a good bit more powerful, and add use cases such as protecting a retreat or blocking off a path. This would make this skill a good bit more powerful, but I think that it's a good place to spend her power budget because it's one of her more unique kit aspects, and of course it features her iconic symbol. If the goal is to buff bruiser Diana without buffing assassin Diana, this seems like a good place to shift some power.

To reduce Diana's burst, you could adjust her ult to not be a full cooldown refresh when proccing moonlight. Have the cooldown line up with Q's cooldown if you proc, and be about 2x Q's cooldown if you miss. It'll play naturally with your Q and R coming up around the same time, won't punish you too hard if you really want to R in without a Q for a good initiate, and will remove the QRR use case that is taking up a lot of her power budget.

Alternative idea, what if instead of giving you another shield when the W orbs are used up, it gave you an attack speed boost, instead of the flat hidden boost in her passive? Now assassin Diana doesn't get as much free defense, and bruiser Diana gets a good burst of sustained damage if she can survive a toe-to-toe skirmish.

tl;dr -- QRR isn't very exciting, interesting, or provide much gameplay. Enable Diana's passive a bit more. Make Diana's E have a bigger impact and give it more use cases.


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Mandaari

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerBlaise View Post
In all honesty this is what I am afraid of from a Diana tweak. The fun of Diana is in her almost dance-like initiation and positioning and repositioning of the enemy via her E pull and R gap closer. finishing off an enemy carry with an R->passive AA cleave is extremely satisfying. Having her hack away while being tanky seems less fun. I've played Diana with AD-Yi crit chance/AS builds, and it just isn't as fun as killing with her abilities. Leona offers this tanky fighter build: I think Diana (as the lore-counterpart to leona) should be different.
This so much. Bruisers have always been my most hated role to play as and against because I find sitting in a team smacking people to be incredibly boring.

What I'd really like to see on her E is some synergy with her passive. Something like the following:

If Moonfall pulls at least 1 enemy champion Diana gains maximum attack speed for 5 seconds or the next 3 attacks.

Basically it's the exact same thing as Jayce's ranged W, but it synergizes a lot with her kit. If she gets someone into melee range she's much more likely to get her passive off.


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Watsine

Junior Member

01-29-2014

How about making her crescent strike reduce her shields cool down? That way she can afford to fight for longer but won't see increased burst dmg.


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Vesh

Game Designer

01-29-2014
4 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerBlaise View Post
Thank you for giving Diana some attention!

What are your thoughts on what has been suggested in a few other threads; that moonlight remain on other targets after an R-use-consumption?

As far as moving towards a fighter role, In loosing her damage dealing burst potential, would she gain sustain (Life steal or spell vamp)?
I don't think the core Diana fantasy is spamming R on everything she hits with her Q. Plus, this is an unrealistic expectation of her. When given the tools to jump a squishy, Diana isn't going to make 4 other pit stops on the way there, she is going to go kill the target she can kill immediately. By the time that target is dead, it's not really important if other targets have moonlight on them because her Q is on such a short cooldown. Plus if moonlight lasted long enough for this to relevant the enemy team would basically be permanently revealed and there's a ton of power in the fact that it grants sight..


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-29-2014

So what happens if Diana gets a 200% movement speed boost while running along the path of Crescent Strike?

Crescent Strike does less damage, doesn't interrupt her movement.

Crescent Strike resets upon hitting with another skill, or triggering her passive.

Is this fantastically overpowered? Maybe.

But what we're looking for now is a set of abilities which no other champion has and which fulfill the theme of Diana.

THEN you balance it.

You're not taking a balance formula and fitting the theme into it. You're taking a theme, embodying it, then balancing it.


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Tyetnic

Member

01-29-2014

If this has already been mentioned, feel free to skip over this comment. What if her passive dealt less damage than it does, but on every auto attack, rather than every third? Would it break her? Personally, I want to see Diana as more of an AP bruiser rather than an assassin. I suppose her kit doesn't have much room for that.