Riot has never once made a sensible post about leaver protection.

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Attila22

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel GIM View Post
could you imagine spending money on this game, and having it all taken away because you live in an area that doesn't offer stable internet? how is that fair? Getting punished for something you can't control sounds unreasonable
You don't play ranked. When I was stuck in a hotel with 2 bars of internet for a week I didn't play anything except aram because i didn't want to screw my team over. If you do play ranked then you suffer the consequences.


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Mutagenaric

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
But remember, what % of that is an organic leave such as an ISP issue or hardware issue? No matter what we do design-wise, we can't fix those types of issues.

Taking the unranked number, if 10% of games have an organic leave, then really anything we implement can solve a piece of the 4% remaining. This isn't to say that we shouldn't work on improving leavers by 4%, but I think it's also safe to say that working on Team Builder first is probably more valuable and has a larger chance at improving the player experience overall.
Well, actually, you can fix that issue by not having the game start if not everyone connects, and giving some sort of leaver protection. That doesn't "fix" the issue of people not connecting, but it completely removes the negative effects of it. You talk about people suffering from taking forever to get into a game, but I for one would find that pain dulled quite a bit by the knowledge that I didn't have to spend 20+ minutes in an unwinnable situation. Also: the game doesn't start if not everyone hits accept in the queue, and this can increase the time to get into a game, too - obviously not by as much, but if people feeling frustrated by not getting into games quickly enough is really such a problem, then maybe that feature should be removed? :P (joking)


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Leonerdo

Senior Member

01-29-2014

My thoughts on the 40-minute-leaver situation:

The big problem with the 40-minute-leaver is that typically it leaves 9 people feeling cheated, with no recourse whatsoever. I think I'm gonna have to break this down, or I'll end up writing confusingly long sentences...
1) 10 people just spent 40 minutes fighting for a match. (We'll assume it's a fairly close match so far; both sides still have a decent chance at victory.)
2) Someone leaves. The match is basically decided by that act alone. 4 people cannot beat 5.
3) This invalidates the first 40 minutes of the game, for both sides. It was basically wasted time. At best, the winning team can feel that they contributed to the match by getting to the 40 minute mark without losing. But aside from that small notion of fulfillment, neither side will really feel like their effort was worthwhile. The winners didn't need to do much to beat a 4-man team, and the losers didn't stand a chance without their fifth (retroactively, at least).
4) In addition to that, the remaining 9 players get no closure. If you look at the first 40 minutes as a kind of rising action building up to a climactic final team-fight (or base-race or whatever), then a leaver is the biggest anti-climax that exists in LoL.

In recap: leavers reduce a possibly epic 40-minute game to a 40-minute waste-of-time, with no adequate ending. Personally, it can leave me feeling more frustrated than almost anything else.

The only thing I can think of that comes close to alleviating these issues is some way of calling a draw. I.e. allow either team to start a draw vote, similar to surrendering except that both teams vote on it. That way, at least very close games can be resolved amicably, and the remaining 9 players can look back on that difficult match and feel like they earned that half-of-a-victory (rather than receiving a meaningless full-victory or loss). Clearly, the draw vote breaks down when a team that is winning wants to keep winning in a 5v4, or when a particularly shrewd team that is losing wants to take advantage of a 5v4 for a comeback.

I think it's worth a shot if it means salvaging an intense 40 minute game from becoming little more than a flip of a coin.

STOP READING HERE IF I AM ALREADY BORING YOU. I felt like I should give my analysis of different match scenarios, for the sake of completeness. DISCLAIMER: THE FOLLOWING IS MOSTLY ME RAMBLING ON.

Leaver leaves a team that is clearly losing: Perhaps the losing team still has a chance if the winning team starts throwing massively, but most likely, the game was already decided. The leaver probably just speed up the impending defeat. This situation, isn't that bad. The winning team knows they deserved the win, and while some of the losers might have felt they had a chance, the thought "We were probably going to lose anyways" offers some solace.
Leaver leaves when the teams are evenly matched: (This scenario was the focus of the first half of the post, so just a summary): So the fighting so far has been fierce. It's still anybody's game. There is plenty of fighting left to be done to decide this game. Oh wait. Someone left... Nevermind. The full team wins by default. (But perhaps both teams have enough good sportsmanship to acknowledge the excellent match-up before the leave by agreeing to a tie?)
Leaver leaves a team that was winning: This is the least straightforward scenario. There is a slim chance that the winning team had enough of an advantage to quickly end the game as 4 before the other team eventually catches up. Perhaps, the previously losing team would show some good nature and accept a draw. (Although, I know I would personally be feeling less sportsmanlike towards a team that had been beating me into the ground than one I was on equal footing with. Moreover, if the 5-man team actually felt bad for the 4-man team, then why don't we see any 5-man's surrendering to 4-man's, saying "Hey, y'all were gonna win this before ___ left. You deserve this win. Here.")

And I know it seems weird, but I really think I would personally prefer to accept a draw in a game that was deserving of such a tie, than to accept a draw or loss in a game that I was clearly about to lose. (My psychology just throws a bunch of sportsmanship and honor at me whenever I play a close, difficult match. But if I'm getting slammed, then the prospect of a free win is just to enticing to pass up; besides those jerks who were beating me are jerks.)

Wow okay, as usually I let this post get away from me and I'm pretty sure the last half is just rambling and I should delete it... excuse me...


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OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post

We know that if we reduce or remove the penalties for all teams if a person leaves the game, that a few things happen:

1) Leaving/AFK actually goes up
2) The number of games that actually completes goes significantly down

The problem with the above is that although players feel better when they get a leaver in their game and can leave without penalty, they get frustrated over time by the sheer number of games that will never finish because people are just leaving and quitting en masse in games. This 'hidden pain' is difficult to explain, but is very easy to see in the data.
What data do you have that measures frustration?

Why do you think forcing people to play 20 minute lost cause games makes people happy?

What you're saying contradicts rational reasoning IMO.


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CredibleMushroom

Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
But remember, what % of that is an organic leave such as an ISP issue or hardware issue? No matter what we do design-wise, we can't fix those types of issues
You dont have to fix their connection issue but you CAN design the LP system around disconnects regardless of cause.


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Sefam

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Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I'm not opposed to taking a second look at LeaverBuster or Leaver systems in general; however, it's all about prioritization on what problems we work on because we simply cannot work on every system at all times.

If every player in this thread looked at their match histories, on average, they'd see very few leaves. We know that a percentage of leaves/afks are due to ISPs and connection issues or hardware, and there's nothing we can design to fix those problems. After you account for those 'organic' leaves/afks that we can't influence, you have what we call the potential space where we can improve leaving/afk.

We know that if we reduce or remove the penalties for all teams if a person leaves the game, that a few things happen:

1) Leaving/AFK actually goes up
2) The number of games that actually completes goes significantly down

The problem with the above is that although players feel better when they get a leaver in their game and can leave without penalty, they get frustrated over time by the sheer number of games that will never finish because people are just leaving and quitting en masse in games. This 'hidden pain' is difficult to explain, but is very easy to see in the data.

I'm open to thinking of solutions for the specific problem of a person not connecting to a game because I think that's a miserable experience that is completely not the fault of anyone in the game; for example, maybe restarting a match if a person never connected in the first 2 minutes.
Make players able to leave 5 minutes after someone disconnects if they don't come back.

Playing a 4v5 is boring.


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Saccharina

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

This leaverbuster thingy is the most retarded stuff I ever saw in a multiplayer game.


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sfxworks

Senior Member

01-30-2014

this doesnt work


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Kizzzle

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
But remember, what % of that is an organic leave such as an ISP issue or hardware issue? No matter what we do design-wise, we can't fix those types of issues.

Taking the unranked number, if 10% of games have an organic leave, then really anything we implement can solve a piece of the 4% remaining. This isn't to say that we shouldn't work on improving leavers by 4%, but I think it's also safe to say that working on Team Builder first is probably more valuable and has a larger chance at improving the player experience overall.
give us ****ing micro, are you srs?


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TheBadness

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CQReborn View Post
Their reasons in the many discussions about this have never, not once evolved beyond "it would open up room for abuse". Which to me, feels like a hidden code for "Dota 2 already has a system and we aren't going to imitate them"

I feel this way because their argument makes no sense: You can't bully people into leaving so the rest of their team doesn't get punished, people in soloque are selfish to a fault, and there is a report and ignore function for people who would try to somehow "force" another player into leaving to take one for the team.

Another point is that, common logic these days is, "everyone is effected by leavers equally, so it balances out." Yet they won't accept that a leaver forgiveness system would ALSO effect everyone equally? It makes no sense. As it stands, Dota 2 is significantly more competitive for solo que (Which is where most people play), this is because every game is an honest to god 5x5 because systems were made from the very beginning to ensure that each matchup will always be even or it simply won't count.

Riot is focusing all their efforts on promoting their E-Sports brand and neglecting the community that has gotten them to where they are today.

You know what would have been x10 more useful than an honor system that is nothing more than a pretty ribbon? A leaver forgiveness system. Prove me wrong.

I guarantee you with 100% certainty if you come up with a way to deal with leavers that had absolutely no possibility of being abused, they'd implement it.



Here's a hint:


You can't.