Riot has never once made a sensible post about leaver protection.

First Riot Post
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Blue Scarf

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Yep, we're thinking along these lines too. For this particular case, it's no one's fault, and we really shouldn't penalize players for being in a game where someone just happens to not be able to connect into the game.

What is more complicated is the "no penalty when someone leaves at the 40 minute mark" scenario.
Loss prevention would mean that there would be elo coming from nowhere. Whenever that happens the system gains more elo, as a result the average number would rise. I believe this problem is already in implementation because of the fact that you can't drop leagues. The change is that mmr is now coming from nowhere, this system would raise the average mmr, essentially inflation.


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Gonsea

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanical Heart View Post
Summoners, please down vote this summoner. He has bad data.

Here's the true elophant data

http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/charts/tier

As you can see, there is NOT a 14% leaver rate in unranked. It's 1.5%

Also, as you go up in ELO, the leaver rate gets even smaller.
1.5% for 1 person,plus 9 more people in that same game.


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MisterTitanic

Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I'm not opposed to taking a second look at LeaverBuster or Leaver systems in general; however, it's all about prioritization on what problems we work on because we simply cannot work on every system at all times.

If every player in this thread looked at their match histories, on average, they'd see very few leaves. We know that a percentage of leaves/afks are due to ISPs and connection issues or hardware, and there's nothing we can design to fix those problems. After you account for those 'organic' leaves/afks that we can't influence, you have what we call the potential space where we can improve leaving/afk.

We know that if we reduce or remove the penalties for all teams if a person leaves the game, that a few things happen:

1) Leaving/AFK actually goes up
2) The number of games that actually completes goes significantly down

The problem with the above is that although players feel better when they get a leaver in their game and can leave without penalty, they get frustrated over time by the sheer number of games that will never finish because people are just leaving and quitting en masse in games. This 'hidden pain' is difficult to explain, but is very easy to see in the data.

I'm open to thinking of solutions for the specific problem of a person not connecting to a game because I think that's a miserable experience that is completely not the fault of anyone in the game; for example, maybe restarting a match if a person never connected in the first 2 minutes.
So what if leaves go up? At least people aren't pissed off beyond belief when they get a leaver


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Blue Scarf

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
But remember, what % of that is an organic leave such as an ISP issue or hardware issue? No matter what we do design-wise, we can't fix those types of issues.

Taking the unranked number, if 10% of games have an organic leave, then really anything we implement can solve a piece of the 4% remaining. This isn't to say that we shouldn't work on improving leavers by 4%, but I think it's also safe to say that working on Team Builder first is probably more valuable and has a larger chance at improving the player experience overall.
Since most DC's i've witnessed have to do with the lolClient interacting poorly with existing systems on a computer, which you shouldn't classify as organic, I feel there's quite a bit you can do to improve leaver rate.


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Zedilurk

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Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanical Heart View Post
Summoners, please down vote this summoner. He has bad data.

Here's the true elophant data

http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/charts/tier

As you can see, there is NOT a 14% leaver rate in unranked. It's 1.5%

Also, as you go up in ELO, the leaver rate gets even smaller.

You also have to add them all together to get a figure of how many games are effected in total, which is the most important figure really.

Which is 5.3% of all games


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NAs Best Quinn

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Senior Member

01-29-2014

Simple fix for people who don't connect.

If a player doesn't connect in the first x(let's say 10?) Minutes, the game automatically ends in a draw. Neither team wins or loses. The player who didn't connect should lose an increased amount of LP, I'm thinking double, increasing if it happens frequently. If it happens to often they are temp banned.


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The MechE

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonsea View Post
1.5% for 1 person,plus 9 more people in that same game.
Per person data huh? Well, that really is a lot different. I stand corrected. Are you sure it's per person? That seems way too high.


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haaaaaaaalp

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Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I'm not opposed to taking a second look at LeaverBuster or Leaver systems in general; however, it's all about prioritization on what problems we work on because we simply cannot work on every system at all times.

If every player in this thread looked at their match histories, on average, they'd see very few leaves. We know that a percentage of leaves/afks are due to ISPs and connection issues or hardware, and there's nothing we can design to fix those problems. After you account for those 'organic' leaves/afks that we can't influence, you have what we call the potential space where we can improve leaving/afk.

We know that if we reduce or remove the penalties for all teams if a person leaves the game, that a few things happen:

1) Leaving/AFK actually goes up
2) The number of games that actually completes goes significantly down

The problem with the above is that although players feel better when they get a leaver in their game and can leave without penalty, they get frustrated over time by the sheer number of games that will never finish because people are just leaving and quitting en masse in games. This 'hidden pain' is difficult to explain, but is very easy to see in the data.

I'm open to thinking of solutions for the specific problem of a person not connecting to a game because I think that's a miserable experience that is completely not the fault of anyone in the game; for example, maybe restarting a match if a person never connected in the first 2 minutes.
Where exactly are you getting this hidden pain concept from? There is absolutely no evidence of this being anywhere near as significant as having a loss from a 4v5 when you look at other games in the genra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
But remember, what % of that is an organic leave such as an ISP issue or hardware issue? No matter what we do design-wise, we can't fix those types of issues.

Taking the unranked number, if 10% of games have an organic leave, then really anything we implement can solve a piece of the 4% remaining. This isn't to say that we shouldn't work on improving leavers by 4%, but I think it's also safe to say that working on Team Builder first is probably more valuable and has a larger chance at improving the player experience overall.
Why is there a need to differentiate why someone is leaving? Leaver protection would apply the same to the leaver's allies reguardless of the reason why someone leaves. The only thing to consider is whether or not it is fair to punish players for leaving from "organic" reasons as you call them and it is pretty clear from your leaver buster system that you have decided it is fair to punish "organic" and non-"organic" leaves the same way. Why should the protection from their allies be any different?


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Vyrolf

Senior Member

01-29-2014

What about if teams have the option to make a mercy vote to end the game early, with a reduced penalty for the opposing team if a player has disconnected for a set amount of time? The vote would be among the team with the upper hand, with the same basic rules as the surrender vote. It would kind of come down to individual generosity, which admittedly may be in short supply, but at least the option would be there.


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XxxLumberJackxxX

Senior Member

01-29-2014

the leaver protection posts make sense.
the manaless champions posts dont