Riot has never once made a sensible post about leaver protection.

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Jvenom23

Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Mathematically, I meant that the vast majority of players would have a low number of leaves. A few players are going to have 10/10 games with leavers, but it might be 1 in 5 million players.
But this response now sounds like "if people keep leaving and you lose lp because of it tough luck". Playing a 4v5 is one of the most frustrating things in this game and currently you get punished the same for having a fair match or an unfair match. Lp losses should automatically be minimized in an unfair match. After the 20 minute mark if you dc from the game for more then (insert appropriate time here)you should get an auto ranked ban for (insert appropriate time here)


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Praise the Void

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Lyte, I've wanted an answer to this question for months: how would giving loss prevented to the people not queued with the leaver makes leavers go up? No one is going to leave just so random people they never going to play with again can not lose. that's hurting them self and not getting anything out of it.

I don't see the problem giving loss prevented to teammates of leavers who didnt queue with that leaver


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Devi Freak Mint

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Senior Member

01-29-2014

Leavers aren't the only ones ruining games. Have you ever considered adding some "tilt protection"?

i.e.: Locking players out of ranked if they have lost a very large number of losses in a short amount of time?

I've lost 16 games in a row in a day, and something like that would have been welcome.


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Gonsea

Senior Member

01-29-2014

I feel ok if I being punished for AFK even if it was ISP fault. It was the rule and I made 4 other player lose a game. I will happy get punish but knowing 4 others was not being dragged down because of me.
Not sure if majority are all ok with this like me.


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Heek

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I'm not opposed to taking a second look at LeaverBuster or Leaver systems in general; however, it's all about prioritization on what problems we work on because we simply cannot work on every system at all times.

If every player in this thread looked at their match histories, on average, they'd see very few leaves. We know that a percentage of leaves/afks are due to ISPs and connection issues or hardware, and there's nothing we can design to fix those problems. After you account for those 'organic' leaves/afks that we can't influence, you have what we call the potential space where we can improve leaving/afk.

We know that if we reduce or remove the penalties for all teams if a person leaves the game, that a few things happen:

1) Leaving/AFK actually goes up
2) The number of games that actually completes goes significantly down

The problem with the above is that although players feel better when they get a leaver in their game and can leave without penalty, they get frustrated over time by the sheer number of games that will never finish because people are just leaving and quitting en masse in games. This 'hidden pain' is difficult to explain, but is very easy to see in the data.

I'm open to thinking of solutions for the specific problem of a person not connecting to a game because I think that's a miserable experience that is completely not the fault of anyone in the game; for example, maybe restarting a match if a person never connected in the first 2 minutes.
I agree. I actually really dislike the dota leaver system because there isn't a huge negative stigma around leaving, so it happens constantly.


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MrHaveANiceDay

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
But remember, what % of that is an organic leave such as an ISP issue or hardware issue? No matter what we do design-wise, we can't fix those types of issues.

Taking the unranked number, if 10% of games have an organic leave, then really anything we implement can solve a piece of the 4% remaining. This isn't to say that we shouldn't work on improving leavers by 4%, but I think it's also safe to say that working on Team Builder first is probably more valuable and has a larger chance at improving the player experience overall.
I mean, a system for leavers in a ranked game-in-progress could give diminished LP gains/losses to various parties:

-Diminished gains for the enemy team if they win, with better gains the longer the game has been progressing before the leave occurred, up to a cap. That is, if someone leaves in the first ten minutes, the enemy team goes on to win and gets 50% of the LP they normally would. Someone leaves at 40 minutes, the enemy team gets 75% of the LP they normally would (they still invested 40 minutes of their time prior to that point, but are still winning with an advantage).

-Losing teams with leavers have diminished LP losses with a similar system.

-Verbal abuse or other reports are given greater weight for review (I'm not sure how gracefully your system can accomplish this; the goal here is to make sure players aren't going to try to 'bully' a 'bad' player into leaving early and minimize their losses).

-The leaver gets normal LP loss, as well as any player they queued with (to avoid 'coordinated' leaving or similar).


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Jvenom23

Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonsea View Post
I feel ok if I being punished for AFK even if it was ISP fault. It was the rule and I made 4 other player lose a game. I will happy get punish but knowing 4 others was not being dragged down because of me.
Not sure if majority are all ok with this like me.
I agree with this too, regardless if i meant to or not i ruined the game for 4-9 other people and should be punished for it


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THTSUBWAYGUY

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Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Yep, we're thinking along these lines too. For this particular case, it's no one's fault, and we really shouldn't penalize players for being in a game where someone just happens to not be able to connect into the game.

What is more complicated is the "no penalty when someone leaves at the 40 minute mark" scenario.
Just drop the hammer down on the person that leaves honestly. I understand it could be hardware issues and what not, but if it happens every once in a while it can be avoided, but there is no excuse for anything at that point in the game.

By drop the hammer, I mean give them the loss and full loss of LP that that person's total team would have lost(I've seen people with negative LP, so I know it's possible to do that) but also give them maybe a 3 strike rule of if they do it again, within a set amount of time, that they will be banned.

Maybe make it so it only applies to games after "X" amount of time. And I know this isn't the ideal setup for what you guys are trying to do, but it would be a start, and would give you guys more data on things that could be improved from there. It certainly doesn't stop the mindset of "oh we are losing at 40 minutes into a game, someone leave so we don't get a loss" but a harsh punishment for the person that does leave could very well control this. Maybe even make it so that if someone does leave in a 40+ minute game, that that person cannot play from that IP for 4 hours as punishment. It could be considered a "soft" ban, and if it happens more frequently it upgrades to a hard ban of them losing the account for a day and so on.

Maybe for more data, set up a program that looks into games that have someone leave after a game that has gone on for 35+ minutes to see if there is any premeditation to the leave or not and punish those people as well for being involved in it.


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Dat Vayne

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Why not just match people with a similar percentage of games completed in ranked only?

It cant be abused and it might just help a little to keep people with bad connections and or people who rage quit out of playing ranked with players who are frustrated by these types of players.

If you play ranked on a bad connection you deserve to play with others with bad connections.

Rage quitters deserve to play with other rage quitters.

Seems like a easy fix to me.


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Gonsea

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Hey, how about extra reward if you can win a 4 vs 5 game?
It not a easy thing to be abuse. And the team got a disconnected teamate at <2' will have a reason to all chat : "Challenge Accepted".
A good minigame, the 4 team got some reason to continue and it doesn't matter if they lose anymore. And the 5 team got nothing to be unhappy about.


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