[Rebalance] Katarina + Death Lotus

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Furor

Senior Member

12-31-2009

For those that don't know me, a quick overview: I'm the author of the Top Tier Katarina guide (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...ad.php?t=38513). I am a top 20 Elo player. The following suggestions are based largely on my experience maining Katarina for a lengthy period of time.

Update 1/13/10 - The cooldown reduction suggestion was tweaked slightly, but since the official documentation has finally been divulged about Death Lotus, has fallen out of favor. I personally prefer an option that combines KI + DL for the Explosion of Daggers (explained below) or a similar effect.

Death Lotus - This is its current implementation:

Level 1 - 30 Magic Damage Base + either 65% of Attack Damage OR 35% Ability Power (whichever is higher) @ 3 dagger ticks per second over 3 seconds to a single target.
Level 2 - 45 Magic Base, everything else the same, max 2 targets.
Level 3 - 60 Magic Base, everything else the same, max 3 targets.

The problem isn't the damage. It is the implementation. This ultimate, probably more so than any, is subject to the whims of your opponents more than it is under your own control. Except maybe Nunu's ultimate, it is the easiest to interrupt ability in the entire game. When I'm against Katarina as any champion with an interrupt, I just wait, save it for the obvious slicing sounds, and immediately interrupt, laughing afterwards. You get a max 1 second against a competent player, which amounts to nothing.
Suggestion: Explosion of Daggers (Killer Instincts + Death Lotus) - Sacrifice the total duration of Death Lotus for a single AoE nuke that deals half of the calculated total damage (visually as a wave of concentrated daggers at each enemy champion). For instance, if the full duration would do 500 damage per target, it would instead do 250 damage instantly in an AoE equivalent to the original spell. This could also be used to hit all targets in range, instead of the max 3, to make up for the loss in damage. This counters situations where you're getting interrupted immediately by instead sacrificing some damage to make sure that at least most is guaranteed.

As many would agree, Katarina is simply sub-par without effective use of Death Lotus. You can pentakill a team of idiots, but against competent individuals, you might not even get a single kill. So I'm suggesting a change to the way the ultimate is built. Not to damage, but to cool-down and duration.

For instance, the current cool-down is 60 seconds, and the duration is 3 seconds (zomg finally got a response!).

Reduce the cool-down to 40 seconds base. Reduce the duration to 2 seconds. Keep everything else the same.

The purpose is relatively simple: she is less reliant on the ultimate and it can still be interrupted by competent players before its full damage is off, but at the same time its synergy with her passive (Voracity - reduces cooldowns by 15 seconds on kill or assist) increases. Furthermore, the ultimate is far less deadly because the duration is decreased. It's no longer a "gg" if the other team is incompetent. It is far less a frustration for a Kat player when playing against competent opponents that know to interrupt it.

On the other hand, this places more skill into the hands of the Katarina player. Instead of being a one-hit wonder, if you're getting kills/assists in a team-fight, you can now use it far more frequently. The ultimate end is that you'd be able to chain it if you built yourself appropriately and positioned yourself right. Also, your role in a team fight becomes more active than KI + Shunpo + Death Lotus. This is what the dev team wants, right? Active, skilled, interesting gameplay? This change makes her even more frenetic, which should be a boost to the "fun" aspect of the champion.

As an aside - her base stats could use a slight improvement, specifically in the Auto-Attack Speed category. If she had decent auto-attack speed (she has one of the worst bases in the entire game), more players would opt towards a traditional physical damage role, rather than play the "optimize the ultimate" game we're currently playing. She's wielding daggers, not a behemoth two-hander.

As it stands, despite the absurd DPS that Death Lotus CAN do, she is -not- a viable pick in tournaments. Any competent team will have multiple interrupts waiting for her. This could be a relatively simple change that could make her more viable.

Update 1/8/2010: An alternative/additional solution may be to attach a buff that uses Killer Instincts like Shunpo and BB currently utilize. For Death Lotus, it could be to give her a temporary spell shield that negates 1 spell like Sivir's or Banshee's Veil does. So, you'd have to choose between Heal Reduction, Dodge, or a Spell Shield. All of which have their purposes.

Anyway, post your thoughts on the subject.


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SumTinWong

Senior Member

12-31-2009

its a very interesting idea and its worth a try

katarina is my main champ atm and i totally know what you mean, if i play against unorganized teams i go for penta kills and end the game be4 they could even surrender
but against competent players who got disables you really cant do anything

also, i saw tons of competent alistars recently (or is it just my bad luck?) even with a 20 seconds CD - it wouldnt change much against 2 strong disable skills on very low CD

i would rather love to see the good useful cleanse ingame, i mean the one that was most obviously OP and made you immune to any disables for 2 seconds after use
the only thing that was REALLY OP and needed to be changed was the VERY LOW cd

+1 for your suggestion
+2 for a good balanced immunity cleanse


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Cesar Chavez

Junior Member

12-31-2009

I 100% agree with this. Any opposing team with a disable totally shuts me down unless I wait until the very end of a team fight when all of the disables have been drawn. In my opinion, Katarina is too reliant on her ult and her ult is way too easy to interrupt...


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dreamenddischarger

Member

12-31-2009

there must be an echo on the forums

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamenddischarger View Post
Here's my take on Kat. If you let her run her entire ultimate, she's going to wreck your team. I suppose the solutuion would be to halve the duration of the ultimate, and halve the cooldown. If you want to give her mana, be my guest, but that also means that the damage of her abilities are going to need a serious buff, and that she'll need to be primarily focused on AP again, which means a buff to her AP ratios and scaling on her Q.


Keep in mind that Kat really only has 3 skills, and a sweet passive. Her W is so garbage that it's barely worth even picking up a single rank in it.

Really though, I'm all for nerfing the ultimate damage. In return just buff the cooldown. 30 seconds would suffice for me.


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Parkinsonian

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Recruiter

12-31-2009

As someone who has read your guide, Furor, and seen mid-level Katarinas mimic your style, I think that your proposed solution is a good one. It's also a welcome change over the slight number tweaking (which is good, really!) that might result in Kat's ult being nerfed beyond usage.


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Patyrn

Senior Member

12-31-2009

The problem is the DPS of the ability. And yes, competent players can interrupt it, if your team doesn't stop them. If stopped, it's worthless, if not, it's brokenly OP.

I would suggest instead make it fire for 1 second, tweak the damage so its in line with other AOEs, and give it a 15 second cooldown. It becomes just a strong AOE nuke.


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Furor

Senior Member

12-31-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamenddischarger View Post
there must be an echo on the forums
I'd been toying with this idea for a while. I also proposed a rough version of it in the ihatehumans whine thread. It's really quite simple conceptually, so I don't care who wants to take claim for such an idea. But I'll take some responsibility for encouraging it. Hopefully my expertise, experience, and skill level will sway people in favor of such a change.

As to whether or not additional damage tweaks are necessary, I'm the kind of person that favors small tweaks and fine-tuned tinkering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patyrn
The problem is the DPS of the ability. And yes, competent players can interrupt it, if your team doesn't stop them. If stopped, it's worthless, if not, it's brokenly OP.
I went over this in the general thread a few days ago, but the overall DPS is actually on par with other hard carries (Trynd, Yi, Twitch), but is actually less overall sustained damage as a champion because of the reliance on an easily-interrupted ultimate. So out of carries, Katarina is actually one of the worst when factoring in decent opponents and team compositions that aren't terrible.

Cutting the cool-down and duration by half means that the overall DPS remains the same, but the damage over the course of a game will be more reliable (but per instance, the damage will decrease). As I suggested in the original post, it also penalizes bad team compositions less since there's less of a chance of getting decimated by a single iteration of Death Lotus. Instead, personal skill will be more of a factor since you'll need to get a kill or prolong the team fight in order to use it again within that instance. This also gives the other team another chance to interrupt you, though.

Would further tweaking be necessary? Maybe. But I think there's an overwhelming opinion that one way or another, Death Lotus' current implementation isn't conducive to a fair or fun environment for opponent or player. It needs reworked.


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Patyrn

Senior Member

12-31-2009

Quote:
I went over this in the general thread a few days ago, but the overall DPS is actually on par with other hard carries (Trynd, Yi, Twitch), but is actually less overall sustained damage as a champion because of the reliance on an easily-interrupted ultimate. So out of carries, Katarina is actually one of the worst when factoring in decent opponents and team compositions that aren't terrible.
True, but sustained damage is not all that important if the enemy is already dead. Also, comparing her to carries is a little bit difficult because there are so many factors. For example, trynd is easily shut down before he does any damage at all. With katarina that is impossible. No argument that twitch has higher burst AND sustained, but he's totally broken.

Quote:
Would further tweaking be necessary? Maybe. But I think there's an overwhelming opinion that one way or another, Death Lotus' current implementation isn't conducive to a fair or fun environment for opponent or player. It needs reworked.
I agree completely. Any ability which oscillates between worthless and OP needs a redesign.

I personally would kind of like to see it turned into some kind of skill shot, where your knives shoot out towards your cursor and you can kinda fan them around or focus them on one guy. I think that would be fun as hell.


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Krom

Senior Member

12-31-2009

LOL...

I hope people realize all this does is favor more early game Kat dominance which will lead to more silliness late game.

Early game, 1v1, 2v2, you never get the full duration anyway either regardless of them having a stun or not. Less chaos, easier to realize you need to run, fewer CCs flying around keeping them in range, etc.

So the "solution" is to put it on a 30sec CD with the same DPS?

LOL at buffing Kat's ult outside of low ELO games.


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Kuraito

Senior Member

12-31-2009

I think Katarina went in a totally wrong direction from the get go. She is supposed to be an assassin, not a team killer, but that's what she's become.

I'd be more interested in her becoming more focused on killing one specific target, like Shaco and Evelyn. Have her ultimate deal full damage to primary target and less to anyone nearby, and make it bit more difficult to interrupt.. Change her passive to being +dodge so she can assassinate even physical damage dealers she catches alone. Maybe give Shunpo a radius damage so it hurts everyone near the person she Shunpos to. Weaken bouncing blade a bit so she can't harass with it as well.

End result is an assassin who nukes one person by shunpo-ing into them and then ultimating, doing only a moderate amount of AoE damage to everyone else, as opposed to the team killer she's encouraged to be now a days. She then contributes to the fight by picking off whoever the team is focus firing and chasing down runners.


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