Regarding the Turret changes in 4.1

First Riot Post
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VanceStubbs

Senior Member

01-16-2014

So uh, why is botlane an exception again?

Following this logiv it would make push-comps on bot even better than before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wetPP View Post
so you are enforcing meta
Do you even know what that means?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UATderpyderp View Post
My main gripe with this change, is how artificial it seems. It's solely aimed at the competitive scene and it makes sense for no one else.
Welcome to video game design.

Did you know that turrets get extra armor when there are no minions around?
Did you know that Super minions do more damage to turrets?
Did you know that every tier of turrets have different health?

There are many "artificial" elements in this game, this is how it works.


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Leo the yordle

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanceStubbs View Post
So uh, why is botlane an exception again?

Following this logiv it would make push-comps on bot even better than before.

Do you even know what that means?
Bot lane is an exception because the change is meant to encourage the duo lane to be there for laning phase. It also gives more risk if the team wants to instead send the duo lane top in order to lock down the enemy top or protect their duo from the more aggressive enemy duo (this is mentioned in the OP).

And a push on bot with the enemy jungler might be better, but the duo lanes tend to have a much better time standing against an enemy 3-man than a top laner will. This also means that you can counter that with your own jungler showing up to scare the enemy jungler off, if not fight them out right.


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Rankin

Member

01-16-2014

@Solcrushed: Don't you think you are talking the easy way out? Fast push strategy is a strategy, regardless of what you say about it. And coming up with strategies is part of player skill as well, or do you not think people who sit and theorycraft strategies and team compositions are skilled at what they do?

Yes you have a valid concern that this has become the most dominant strategy in competitive play and that stifles the game, but this is the lazy man's way out. You could have introduced new items in the game that helps people counter fast pushing, or reduced the cooldown of the teleport summoner spell by a fair bit, so a team can respond to a fast push and also makes room for a lot more early game skirmishes, which makes for exciting viewing experience as well. Instead making the towers tankier definitely reeks of "We really don't want to use our gray matter", which is not what we expected of you, after you made some good changes as far as income flow goes.


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darkestluna

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Now I'm just a lowly Bronze 1 do to my lack of will to play ranked, but a smarter solution to me would be to add a new passive to the turrets inventory called "Reflexive Armor" or something similar. The passive would last for a certain amount of the beginning of the game as you have it now, and the effect would be that for each additional champion within a turrets radius, it would take like 5 or 10 less damage per auto.

This seems like it would help you stop the early lane aggression against turrets (more players = less damage) while still allowing any player to go wherever they want.


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Leo the yordle

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rankin View Post
@Solcrushed: Don't you think you are talking the easy way out? Fast push strategy is a strategy, regardless of what you say about it. And coming up with strategies is part of player skill as well, or do you not think people who sit and theorycraft strategies and team compositions are skilled at what they do?

Yes you have a valid concern that this has become the most dominant strategy in competitive play and that stifles the game, but this is the lazy man's way out. You could have introduced new items in the game that helps people counter fast pushing, or reduced the cooldown of the teleport summoner spell by a fair bit, so a team can respond to a fast push and also makes room for a lot more early game skirmishes, which makes for exciting viewing experience as well. Instead making the towers tankier definitely reeks of "We really don't want to use our gray matter", which is not what we expected of you, after you made some good changes as far as income flow goes.
An item designed specifically to be used to counter the fast push would be very hard to make in order to be effective, considering that you're asking someone to sacrifice their first item for it. It also poses the question of just how that item would work, or what its stats are...

And decreasing the CD o teleport doesn't sound like it would change anything really. You would need to explain that.


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Furi Kuri

Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by wetPP View Post
so you are enforcing meta
^


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Chris Green

Senior Member

01-16-2014

bumping this so GD can laugh


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Leo the yordle

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furi Kuri View Post
^
No. 'Enforcement' would be making it a rule to play the 1/J/1/2 meta. This change is specifically to create drawbacks to sending the duo to fight the top laner just as there are drawbacks to keeping with the standard meta (ie, it makes it easier for late-game top laners like Nasus or Jax scale, since they aren't being denied gold).


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exec3

Senior Member

01-16-2014

It feels like you're trying to treat the symptoms rather than go after the source. eg: you say that dragon isn't a meaningful tradeoff for 2v1 lanes, then why not spawn dragon earlier instead of trying to forcefully delay when towers can be killed?

I think however the main issue is that turrets are useless, the targeting AI is a joke full of holes eg: if you deal the killing blow on an enemy you won't take agro, you also won't take agro if the enemy you're attacking is out of turret range. Not to mention the issue where after only a little bit of armor/health you won't take that much damage towers allowing you more than enough time to successfully perform a dive. Diving should be a risk in and of itself but the dives I see in competitive and otherwise don't seem to have much risk.

Maybe if there was a summoners spell like garrison that caused turrets to attack faster and deal splash damage, then people can take that as a counter to 2v1 lanes (and dives in general which would be a good thing imo).

I just feel like your way of bringing lane swaps under control involves removing gameplay rather than adding counterplay.


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5murf337

Junior Member

01-16-2014

@Solcrushed
I don't feel this reply addressed the concerns rasied in this "http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...rces_the_meta/" reddit thread. It's not that we wish you to discourge 2v1 as the standard lane it's that the changes only encourage the Fast Push. It is known now one turret is significantly weaker than the others (in fact until 4.2 the other two are going to be quite tough).

The problem is you have removed a whole anit-Fast Push counter measure in early bonus armour from bot, if a team chooses to dedicate resources (jungler, early mid shove and roam, or top lane tele to bot) to removing that turret the opposing team is not going to be able to respond to the pressure, pushing the mid or top lane won't work as these turrets are strong early. Moving a 3rd man bot is just the same style of solution we're trying to avoid, the best answer to a 3v2 lane should not be to make a 3v3 lane.