Regarding the Turret changes in 4.1

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

kdHuCoB8S3

Senior Member

01-17-2014

Basically destroy diversity with more bandaid fixes.

Keep up the good work riot.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mysnomer

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-17-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverLaxx View Post
To fall this far is a sad thing to behold. I don't even know you.
Sorry to have offended. It was my way of saying we are on the same wavelength, to an extreme degree.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Raptoreyes

Senior Member

01-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
While the solution you propose affects the fast push, it still leaves lane swaps without a cost because you leave behind a 1v2 lane when you swap. As long as there is no cost to pay for creating asymetric lanes, anyone who cannot handle one is barred since the opposing team will laneswap with impunity
The cost for lane swapping is the number of last hits you loose while traveling to your new lane. Even supports with a Targon's or Talisman loose out during transit to the new lane. If Teleport is taken thier is still the long CD to consider and the opportunity cost of a different summoner spell.

On the whole lane swapping is healthy for the game as champions with far too much early game power (such as Riven for example) can have a duo lane pushed against them to cut down their effectiveness until the nerf bat gets properly applyed to them. Unfortunately this strategy does not work very well due to the power curve of most AD carries, which are too under powered early to be without a support and too strong late game to 1v1 effectively. Smooth out the RADC power curve and we can have more healthy lane swaps.

However towers should have both more armor early game and more damage early game to keep 2v1 lanes primarly defensive in intent early game. The damage reduction is good but more armor is needed early too. Towers should not be falling before the 4-8 min mark in a healthy game.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Raptoreyes

Senior Member

01-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
This is an inelegant change, we will be the first to acknowledge that. Your points about burden of knowledge etc. are also completely valid. Believe me, the moment we feel we have a better change that accomplishes the goals, we will adopt the change.
Lets brainstorm solutions to early tower pushing that are transparent to all player levels. (downsides would be underlined)

Bring Bulwark back as a spell but let it ONLY effect A SINGLE TOWER within XX units of the casting champion. Lower the cooldown to compensate. The trouble with the old bulwark was its global nature and this new summoner would fix that. Likely the old problems with the spell might return but the spell could give a temporary shield for XX hp instead of damage immunity which helped to make the spell OP when used by all 5 players on a team.

Buff up the towers so they cannot be approached without extreme caution before level 6. Dragon however would grant a weaker version of the baron buff as it applies to towers and as the game becomes older this buff could become stronger. That way early tower pushes are gated to grouping up to kill the dragon at a level where people consider dragon to be somewhat formidable against a 2-3 man attempt. The damage buff to buildings from dragon would keep dragon relevant late game for teams that could not muscle out the Barron buff. The new dragon buff could be raised or lowered if games are getting to short or long. My personal bias has always been that towers are too weak and this would solve that buy pushing health, armor pen, damage and tower range upwards a bit. The down side is some people like to tower dive before level 6 but is that really healthy for the game? I would say no.

Towers do percent true damage-- This would keep tanks from getting out of hand but might remove the co-op game play of tanking the tower for the adc. This change would also solve early push. However the downside is well worth thinking about long and hard before we solve things this way.

Towers start with XX number of points of armor reduction that DROPS off as champion auto attacks hit the tower. The first 20 or so champ auto attacks and perhaps a certain much higher number of minion auto attacks gradually remove the towers bonus armor down to current live values for towers at the mid game. This change would be obtuse and hard to desern for new players UNLESS an extra particle was put on the towers early game to intuitively explain this change to newbies and those who cannot be bothered to look on the LOL wiki.

Towers are immune to the first XX number of auto attacks by champions but this works the way pantheon's passive works. A counter would be on the tower to show how many more damage-less hits the tower would take before hit points start being removed normally. Until the buff was removed by auto attacks the tower would gain bonus damage and armor penetration. Too bad new or mid tier players tend to ignore the buff bar and are unlikely to click on the towers to understand anything outside of what damage a tower does to them during a dive.

Towers start with high attack speed that decays down to what we see on live by the time most players are hitting xx level or game time. The up side is players could see when the towers were too strong and could sense when they were weak enough to ignore in a dive via the feedback of tower attack speed. Unfortunately towers could feel very hard to time as their attack speeds would be constantly changing until the early game was over. Towers would both gain and loose readability with this change.

Towers could start with a very high attack speed that goes down as the tower looses hit points. Same benefits and problems apply to the changes above.

Towers apply a STRONG slow to targets hit by them all game long. This would not prevent early pushes 2v1 to take towers down. However it would help against champs that are incorrigible tower dive artists

Champions could "man the tower" adding the champs stats to the tower and the max hp gained would stay. However after maning the tower the champ would be teleported back to base after 60 sec of doing so as in a forced back.

Towers have an aura that lowers minion damage to champions by huge amounts thus the defending champion can with skilled play push the offensive champ OFF the tower without being knocked down by the offensive champions minions. This would remove early wave stacking to the first tower. The damage reduction to minions pushed into a towers radius could be raised or lowered based on how effective you want early tower pushing to be.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kekisha

Member

01-18-2014

Is it just me that finds it a bit ironic that Fortify was removed back in Season 2, and yet this is a discussion about preventing/slowing down the fast push strats that became more developed in Season 3; and continues to plague Season 4?

GG riot, GG

Praise be to the Meta.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Nyhver

Senior Member

01-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
While the solution you propose affects the fast push, it still leaves lane swaps without a cost because you leave behind a 1v2 lane when you swap. As long as there is no cost to pay for creating asymetric lanes, anyone who cannot handle one is barred since the opposing team will laneswap with impunity
Why is it a bad thing that people have to choose their champions under the pretext of risk that is 2v1 lanes?

Why aren't you as a team promoting more ward scouting for teams that pick bad 2v1 champions?

Would that be a bad strategic part of the pick or play out pre-lane phase for teams and the scene?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The Dravening

Senior Member

01-18-2014

Why not just severely nerf the amount of gold a turret gives to a team? Right now taking an early tower gives quite a measurable gold boost to all members of the team, making it valuable. Even if there WAS no gold gained, turrets are still very important objectives.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ForeverLaxx

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysnomer View Post
Sorry to have offended. It was my way of saying we are on the same wavelength, to an extreme degree.
I was merely suggesting, rather poorly I suppose, that desiring to be married to someone like me means your standards must be pretty low. I understood the intent, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to bring myself down.

Back to this thread at hand, though, I'm never surprised when Riot suddenly stops responding in threads like this that bring up legitimate criticisms and issues with the plan. They stick around for hours on end but once they stop getting praise for their action, they move on. Pretty sure this is why the forums are being replaced with Reddit-style post systems, which I detest and abhor to an extreme degree. Only what Riot wants to see will be filtered to the top, and the dissent will sink to the bottom.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Priamos

Senior Member

01-18-2014

Lol, I love all the noobs complaining about how Riot is "destroying diversity" and "enforcing the meta," and should just "let pros figure out a counter."

There is no counter, people. 2v1 has been going on for OVER A YEAR now. And still the only counterplay to 2v1-ing is to 2v1 yourself. It's bull.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FFS All is OP

Senior Member

01-18-2014

havent seen a non-hippalu$ red post get downvoted like this in a while