Regarding the Turret changes in 4.1

First Riot Post
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Critkeeper

Senior Member

01-16-2014

I'm just going to say one more thing, and then I'll give it a rest.

This change will be effective at doing what you proposed. It will curtail the 2v1 dominance in the pro scene.

It will also do a bunch of other things. Foremost among the other things it will do, by far, is the effect on the player perception about RIOT with their stance on the stagnation of the meta game, and what the future holds for LOL. People will feel more certain now than ever, that league of legends will never change its format. People will believe that the game as is will remain as is, with no effort made to balance strategic level choices, despite the fact that this is exactly what you are trying to do with these change-- as you have said-- the current 2v1 strategy is too effective and you want to balance it.

Just because you have an effective solution that works on the machine, doesn't mean it will work in the context of the community in real life. You have to weigh effectiveness with tact and public perception.


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BlazingSalvo

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrisonOwns View Post
Lol playing the same way since S1 (excluding shit like Ashe mid lol) is more exciting than an evolution of creativity? Okay. No.
I feel like the way you play isn't as important as the variety of champions and the opportunities for interaction between players.

2v1 lanes are different than season 1 sure. But it has less interaction. You'd rather watch something that's different for difference sake than watch two toplaners pick whatever champion they choose and duel? Like the earlier Riven vs. Trundle matchup in the EU challenger series. You'd rather watch tanks all day every day, just because the lane setup is "different" from season 1-2?


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Mokkun

Senior Member

01-16-2014

I'm failing to understand how people think this is stifling creativity.

2v1 has been the stifling aspect. It's limited the long solo lane to primarily tanks, lest they be run over. People want more things to be viable in competitive? then 2v1 has to have seriously diminished value.

As for pros coping with this "cheese strat," 2v1 became the normal competitive meta (and has slowly been rolling back a bit), and pros did cope with it. They coped with it by dropping the long solo lane role down to a tiny pool of champions.
It's not that fast push can't be coped with, it's that the coping leads to stagnant play.


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Solcrushed

Live Balance Designer

01-16-2014
11 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labcown View Post
I understand the point of fast pushing strategies invalidating the laning phase and therefore invalidating certain champions from ever being picked in the competitive scene, but the solution currently out seems HIGHLY artificial and only covers a very small part of the problem.

One solution I was reading on Reddit earlier was to increase the turret's damage reduction based on the number of enemies around it. What is your opinion on such a solution, which wouldn't invalidate the fast push strategy as a whole, but would then include more decision factors when deciding to siege a turret because of the scaling reduction.
While the solution you propose affects the fast push, it still leaves lane swaps without a cost because you leave behind a 1v2 lane when you swap. As long as there is no cost to pay for creating asymetric lanes, anyone who cannot handle one is barred since the opposing team will laneswap with impunity


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Ragebeard Manric

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlazingSalvo View Post
People seem to be misguided in their complaints.

"So you're enforcing the meta."
Who cares? Right now lane swaps, 3v1 dives, kill a turret - every single game 0 is boring.

People want to see a toplane 1v1 skill matchup. A bot lane 2v2 skill matchup. Lane swaps have completely removed interaction in the first 10 minutes of the game for these lanes. It's boring, it's stale, and Riot is trying to make it better for the viewer since the viewers (and low level players who watch the games for entertainment) are the ones paying them.

edit: and 2v1 lanes create a hostile environment to anyone who isn't a manaless tank with sustain. Rewarding 1v1 leads to another breathe of life to 1v1, which is much easier to balance than 2v1.
Imagine if Jayce [or any carry-like champion] had to be balanced to survive a 2v1 (and possible get a kill in a 2v2 jungler situation) similar to how Renektons and Rumbles have done multiple times in LCS, while also being able to survive or escape dives.
Balancing for 1v1 is just much easier.
People also like to see players innovate and break the game, so to speak, and stifling that creativity is terrible.

Give players more opportunities, not less. If something is dominant you need to make counter-strategies available instead of just nerfing that strategy. Open up the possibility for people to -gasp- not have a jungler every game. If you could field a 2-1-2 lane and not be horribly disadvantaged through objective control that would completely counter 2v1 lane swap strategies.

I doubt that could ever be achieved though the way League is now. It doesn't have enough systems in place to allow this to be possible.


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HarrisonOwns

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Senior Member

01-16-2014

That is purely subjective.

You consider it stagnant but, forcing the meta is disgustingly more stagnating by far.


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Leo the yordle

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am Trynda View Post
I'm just going to say one more thing, and then I'll give it a rest.

This change will be effective at doing what you proposed. It will curtail the 2v1 dominance in the pro scene.

It will also do a bunch of other things. Foremost among the other things it will do, by far, is the effect on the player perception about RIOT with their stance on the stagnation of the meta game, and what the future holds for LOL. People will feel more certain now than ever, that league of legends will never change its format. People will believe that the game as is will remain as is, with no effort made to balance strategic level choices, despite the fact that this is exactly what you are trying to do with these change-- as you have said-- the current 2v1 strategy is too effective and you want to balance it.

Just because you have an effective solution that works on the machine, doesn't mean it will work in the context of the community in real life. You have to weigh effectiveness with tact and public perception.
So what I'm getting from that is that it's better to have a game be worse than it could be just because it'll keep GD happy?

Riot has sort of proven time and again that's not how they do things.


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FFS All is OP

Senior Member

01-16-2014

I really think this could be solved in other ways.

Make duo/tri lane xp worse while increasing the xp range (so the 1 in a 2v1 situation isn't infinitely zoned).

Decrease gold reward from the outer turret and shift it to inner turrets.

Make the first turret shot more responsive to make aggro juggling harder in 3v1 dives.

Reduce early xp from 2v1/3v1 champ kills.

ETC.


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medulla00

Senior Member

01-16-2014

I think that if you want to go on with this change but you really DON'T want to enforce the 1-J-1-2 meta, you should also reduce the 'snowbally effect' of taking turrets early in the game.
I.e suppose enemy team picks cait/varus/draven but his team lacks of dive champs to let me pick ashe/kog and send them toplane. This is the only lane where an inmobile adc will survive to poke/harrass and won't have to deal with 4man dives. I'm actually introducing a different strategy to the 'enforced meta' by picking a nonmobile ADC and sending him top lane. But given that I won't be able to take top turret before enemy bot take my second turret I'm putting my team in a great disadvantage.
You should definitely solve the early-tower problem by both sides (both making 2v1 top harder to take down and at the same time making that early towers give less gold). This way you are saying: "ok, you can still send a 2v1 toplane. But your team won't take top turret at 3mins mark and at the same time, if the enemy takes bot tower at the 3mins mark, the gold made by this move won't snowball them.

I'm really scared that the solution that you proposed will make lanebully adcs extremely dominants and give the final blow to ashe/kog/tristana/vayne as they won't have a place in bot lane nor top lane


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HarrisonOwns

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Senior Member

01-16-2014

Riot has kinda proven that they don't care what their playerbase thinks, they do what they want.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com....php?t=3956405

Like closing threads with 750+ upvotes that directly call them out about their greed.^