Why do we do reworks?

First Riot Post
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de Dust

Senior Member

01-16-2014

@riot - any love for gangplank in the near future?


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MajorPain9

Senior Member

01-16-2014

How come Nasus didn't get a traditional skin with original voice?


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H3lla Moneys

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Senior Member

01-16-2014

How do you guys prioritize the next reworks to get pushed out? I'm just not sure why people like Xerath (a fairly recently released and viable champion) seem to be the next in line for a rework, yet shaco, sion, poppy, gangplank and others have been kept out of viability forever because their kits are toxic.

I'm not saying Xerath doesn't deserve a rework, just wondering what mentality led you to pushing others back to get a Xerath rework out.

Anyways, I'm really glad you guys decided to prioritize reworking over new releases. It's always good to see some of those old, buried champions come back to life.


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Shatuedeif

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Now if you could rework towers and minions to mean something that would be nice. They are so pathetic, they go down so quick, why are they even there?


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AnonTwo

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Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorPain9 View Post
How come Nasus didn't get a traditional skin with original voice?
Because they're not done for vocal differences, they're done for visual ones

The old Classic Nasus has no conceptual visual differences from the new one. They're both yellow armored jackals with green staffs.


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Im Clowner

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey all,

We are really excited about all of the reworks and visual updates that we have released recently and all of the ones that are coming this year. As great as they are, the question of "why change things?" often arises, and it is absolutely valid. At a high level we have certain goals when we choose to rework the gameplay, visuals, or lore of a champion:
  • Maximize the potential of a character - This could be anything from better art to entirely new skills that deliver the character's theme in a much more cool or interesting way.
  • Make the character more fun to play with and against - When a character has particularly problematic abilities that are very frustrating to play against or don't offer their opponents any way to play against, we will always try to create better gameplay for their opponent while maintaining the fun and power of the character.
  • Upgrade old characters to our current quality standards - There is a lot of years old art that we can just improve by updating it (Nasus, so doge).
  • Focus a character into a more unique role - If the opportunity is available, we would like for all characters to bring unique value and gameplay to their team.

Things like nerfs and buffs are not reasons for a champion rework, because those can be usually accomplished through number tuning on damage, cooldowns, mana. It's true that reworks will always have an effect on the power of a champion, but their primary purpose is to improve the gameplay and mechanics. After a rework we will always continue to balance champions and hopefully the game is improved in the long term with the gameplay improvements that a rework brings.

If you all have any questions about our rework philosophy in general, we're here (maybe I can rope Meddler or CertainlyT into this conversation as well) to answer questions and discuss.

-Scruffy
Why is shaco being reworked? Please answer.


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Fishing Boat

Member

01-16-2014

love you scruffy


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Linna Excel

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Scruffy, what do you all think about this thread I just posted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linna Excel
There's no perfect Soraka, only perfect Sorakas. Okay, why did I just link to a 17 minute talk about pasta instead of the shorter Stirling version? That's not important.

What is important is how this applies to champs.

Take Soraka. Most people think of her as an underpowered, non-competitive support. I'm not arguing that. What most people don't think of her as is a change-up AP mid who levels Q so there's always that threat that she'll start pushing mid if you leave. The only thing keeping her back is she can't last hit and her Q makes last hitting even more problematic (have to be careful so minions don't CS on you). If it weren't for that, she's probably be the best support to split push... Her Q and a global heal kind of begs for her to be a niche split pusher.

So why do I bring this up?

Well, the same champ can be different things to different people. Sure the top level players might make one style of playing that champ seem good, and maybe it is that champ's best suit, but that doesn't mean there is or should only be one way to play a champ.

Take Leona. Most people think of her as a tank. No argument there. But look at her kit. She's got a melee stun, a gap closer, and a ranged AoE stun. Even in S4, 90% of her builds that I see posted have her building boots and all tanky items.

If any of her skills scaled off of AD or her passive gave her some small benefit towards a marked target without procing it, how long would it take for her to be talked about as a top laner or make her more common in the jungle? Some players would love to play a solo lane Leona. Just get a shiv and hydra for waveclear and you're all set.

My thoughts on the matter as far as the champs go is that it seems that too many champs can only be played one way. Look at Sej. I love her in the jungle. Out of the jungle, she's got problems. Mainly that her ability to solo top would take too much mana to wave clear and as a tanky support, she'd have similar issues but for CCing and initiating instead.

Or look at Ahri. Before her last rework she had versatility in her playstyle. However now, she's more of an assassin than a mage. This pissed a lot of players off because there are (or at least were) two Ahri factions and one (mage Ahri) was nerfed. This is before I started playing, but I remember people talking about a time when she could build tanky as well. Nowadays, if you aren't building the 3 rod items and a void staff, you're probably doing it wrong.

I really think that Riot needs to do a better job of identifying the main groups of people who play a champ instead of lumping them all into one group and reworking a champ with that one generic group in mind. Instead of looking at a champ as a one trick pony, you need to see what the main factions of players for that champ are and figure out what they need.

Saying Leona can only build and play a tanky support is a mistake.

Saying Soraka has to be a dedicated healer is a mistake.

Saying Ahri can't be a mage is a mistake.

Saying each champ should have only one possible play style is a mistake.

You don't have one player playing LOL, you've got millions. Each with their own tastes and their own opinions on what they'd like to be able to do with a champ. While champs need to be healthy for the game, they also need to make all the main groups of players happy as well.


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PsychoB0b

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdcIsMyReligion View Post
More public relations spin.

Fact of the matter is most champions never get changes for years and then receive a rework out of the blue. You have more fail reworks under your belts than successes, a lot of champions just need tweaks, not reworks. Very few champions actually NEED a rework. They just need changes. Yi/Kayle/Sivir/Katarina/Ryze/Skarner are all examples of reworks that happen just for the sake of reworking. You can't say a champion needs a rework when you have made zero attempt to make them viable.
Master Yi- Frustrating to play against in low Elos, awful in higher elos.
Kayle-....You mean the prerework where he gained ap for building Ad and vice versa?
Skarner- Perma slow is something Riot dislikes greatly...and can be difficult to fight against.
Sivir- Had to keep her power low due to very powerful team wide ult, and pushing strength.


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CQReborn

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Hi Scruffy!

I've noticed you guys pay a lot of attention to Thresh, considering in many ways he fills the shoes that Blitzcrank used to fill, is there any chance you plan to tweak / fix a few things on Blitzcrank's kit? I know one huge thing would be to set his ultimate passive to be something that only zaps people he attacks:

It causes a lot of problems (Draws aggro on Dragon/Baron when ward clearing the pit, pushes lanes/denies your ADC last hits, is frustrating that you can't aim it when fighting somebody and 2 minions aggro to you and such and such) If you could make it stick to his auto-attack, it would definitely give the Robo room to fill in roles outside of just bot lane support.