Why do we do reworks?

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LightEcho

Senior Member

01-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I don't understand the comparison - Darius' kit utilizes the stacks as opposed to just getting them as a slow and damage. Why would Gangplank get high stacks when there's no gameplay surrounding the application or follow-up?
I think the arguement could be made that the application is too easy because it only stacks three times. It seemed strange that in your intial nerfs you moved from 5 to 4 to 3 stacks instead of nerfing the per stack value.


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Nielspeterdejong

Senior Member

01-19-2014

Someone on the "A wild knifecat appears" forum posted a text that pretty much sums up the Rengar nerf:

The rengar nerf was way too hard.

Why he was nerfed:
His damage potential - Ok for this issue, before I begin, I will admit that his damage BURST is incredible if not the highest in game. It is the reason I play him. It is one of the reasons anyone plays him. It is just like how every champions has its highlights and makes players want to play that certain champion e.g. Blitzcrank for his game deciding pulls, Jax for being the most powerful duelist in game.
However, Rengar's burst is completely dependent on his ferocity stacks. To maximize his damage, he NEEDS to have three ferocity stacks ready, otherwise he will lose almost any trade (barring the fact that he is fed comparatively to the other champions). Rengar's damage potential is also only high when either he is (assuming now he has his 3 stacks ready):
1.) Fed
2.) In a Bush
3.) In his ultimate

For the first issue
He is fed.
For the second issue
Ward. Predictable, this just comes down to game awareness.
For the third issue
In team fights, put down a pink ward. Now you can completely predict where he is coming for and crowd control him to death.

Rengar is limited to his burst potential. He is not a champion that wins trades in fight without it and he's not a champion that can execute his burst in every situation.

Now, Rengar as a champion:
There are three ways you can play Rengar: Assasin, Assasin/Tank, and just Tank.
Assassin Rengar - Squishy, EXTREMELY easy to kill, can almost always guarantee a kill on a single target.
Assasin/Tank - Can survive hits but target will most likely escape.
Tank - You're not killing anyone.

Now, Rengar's ONLY means of killing someone in team fights is either by using his Ultimate, jumping to them from a bush, walking to them or Flashing to them. Those are his ONLY means of gap closing.
In Terms of Team fighting:
Ultimate - This is Rengar's only gap closer in a team fight.
Jumping to them from a bush - Only if you're lucky.
Walking to them - You will die.
Flashing to them - Long cooldown, not reliable, the enemy sees you, disengages from you, now you are most likely useless.

I would like to now compare Rengar to other assasins.
Here's a list of assasins and their gap close:
Zed - ultimate (unstoppable), shadowstep
Fizz - Dash (unstoppable), trident hop thing (unstoppable)
Khazix - Jump, Ultimate
Akali - Three Dashes (unstoppable)
Evelyn - Sprint, she's invisible
Kassadin - Teleport
Katerina - Teleport
Leblanc - Dash
Master Yi - Invincible Dash
Shaco - Invisible teleport
Talon - Teleports behind target, Ultimate

Every single assasin has a gapcloser on a very short cooldown. That is the point of an assasin, to be able to get close to their target and do high damage. All assasins are able to do this in short sucessions because they have an ability that is shorter than 10 seconds that allows them to do it multiple times in a fight.
Rengar is the only assasin that if not in contact with a bush or ultimate ready, will be unable to get close to his target.
For this reason, most teams will not pick Rengar as the assasin of choice because of his heavy reliance on his ultimate.

People saw triple q as a threat because of its high burst damage. The thing with triple q is that it has a time window. If it is not done in a 4 second time window or before his ultimate fades, he will be unable to execute it. Meaning at times, it will fail. Yes, if the triple q does work, if target is squishy, they are most likely dead. The fact is that some people do not have high enough reaction time. It is not hard to disengage from Rengar as soon as he jumps on you. Regardless of how much damage Rengar will be doing, that should be the immediate reaction of an assasin jumping on you. Once that distance is made, Rengar is completely useless. No ultimate. No gap close.

The fact that triple q isn't possible anymore makes Rengar's damage as an assasin role horrible. He cannot guarantee kills on any target as his damage output is simply not high enough.

This nerf was way too hard on Rengar, if anything, just make triple q harder to execute, make q's activation a 5 second window instead. His damage output is just not high enough on top of the fact that he cannot gap close.


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PrinceDarknight

Senior Member

01-20-2014

Hearing about a GP rework has got me MEGA excited. He's one of my all-time favorite champs. I first started playing LoL years ago because of GP, a badass pirate. I never thought he needed a rework, per se, just some number tuning and tweaks (like the removal of a cast time on W and E), but I suppose a rework is the best way to address this.

VERY glad to hear that he'll still more or less be the same pirate we know and love. Glad to hear his Ult and oranges are still there, but you said he's getting a new ability...I doubt Q would get changed too much, so....good bye Raise Morale? I suppose it's the still I'd miss the least, but I really like how fast GP moves around with it, and I think speed is a core value point on him. But I'm excited to see what the new ability is. Does he bury treasure on the map for...some reason? I kinda hope Raise Morale or something like it stays, since I like the theme of the move...he's a pirate captain, so he naturally can boost those around him.

Oh, and btw, Riot: You have 4 ninjas characters currently (Akali, Zed, Kennen, Shen), and only 2 pirate themed champs-a pirate captain, and a pirate bounty hunter. What gives! The pirate vs ninja wars need to be on equal footing! May I suggest a Privateer? Since we already have a captain and bounty hunter, and all the ninjas form a kinda cliche ninja role. Give him a passive called Letter of Marque. And since MF dual wields pistols, GP has a sword and pistol, give the Privateer 2 swords? Just saying!


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Stevev45

Senior Member

01-20-2014

The Darius changes seem like a giant reduction in power.
"he does the same thing he does now, but requires twice the stacks to do it."
Is he considered over-powered?


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Mizore Aono

Junior Member

01-20-2014

I actually like the darius rework. Sound's like a blast!


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Praprapra

Member

01-20-2014

Any news on dragon master Swain ?


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Marisa

Senior Member

01-20-2014

Can we get a raincheck on Quinn, actually? I'm not really sure if she's "unviable" but she certainly suffers from unreliability issues and feels counter-intuitive because of how using her ulti dramatically changes how she is played. I feel like her steroids don't feel impactful; it's hard to judge the value of the 3 second attack speed steroid on W because of how short it is.

Even if she doesn't require a rework, I'd like for a grain of hope concerning small buffs that make her moments of strength and actual role more clear.


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Vonstahl

Member

01-20-2014

Do you have any plans for Mordekaiser? I think he is a really cool idea and he isn't really touched, and do you have any ideas that would make him more appealing?
I know there are a lot of champs in worse spots and i'm not really looking for anything huge, I just want to know if there is anything for him to look forward to in a far far distant future, and posibly some ideas?

also I haven't seen anything on the Yorick rework for a while. Is that still a thing?


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Best KhaZix Void

Senior Member

01-20-2014

On less of kit reworks and more visual, what's your philosophy behind who needs visual updates? Are there any signature things to look out for? (Triangle feet, poor textures, poor/awkward animations), and, does it relate to kit reworks in anyway?
I know Yi came with some rather huge number balancing ( AP Yi is almost completely out of the picture.) but Garen and Nasus' VU was rather tame when it came to kit changing.
TL;DR What do you look for when discussing champs that need VUs?
Does the need for a kit rework/number balance factor in?


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Kidyo

Junior Member

01-20-2014

how about ryze?
Why tradional AP like ryze nerf??
Additionlly,kind of Assassins were strong to kill AD or SUP