Why do we do reworks?

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Vahlen

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey all,

We are really excited about all of the reworks and visual updates that we have released recently and all of the ones that are coming this year. As great as they are, the question of "why change things?" often arises, and it is absolutely valid. At a high level we have certain goals when we choose to rework the gameplay, visuals, or lore of a champion:
  • Maximize the potential of a character - This could be anything from better art to entirely new skills that deliver the character's theme in a much more cool or interesting way.
  • Make the character more fun to play with and against - When a character has particularly problematic abilities that are very frustrating to play against or don't offer their opponents any way to play against, we will always try to create better gameplay for their opponent while maintaining the fun and power of the character.
  • Upgrade old characters to our current quality standards - There is a lot of years old art that we can just improve by updating it (Nasus, so doge).
  • Focus a character into a more unique role - If the opportunity is available, we would like for all characters to bring unique value and gameplay to their team.

Things like nerfs and buffs are not reasons for a champion rework, because those can be usually accomplished through number tuning on damage, cooldowns, mana. It's true that reworks will always have an effect on the power of a champion, but their primary purpose is to improve the gameplay and mechanics. After a rework we will always continue to balance champions and hopefully the game is improved in the long term with the gameplay improvements that a rework brings.

If you all have any questions about our rework philosophy in general, we're here (maybe I can rope Meddler or CertainlyT into this conversation as well) to answer questions and discuss.

-Scruffy
Ya, you hit the nail on the head with that Yi rework.........GREAT JOB.........same with Karma, Kat, Heimer, man the list goes on. In fact idk if you've had a successful rework YET.


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Gaxxe

Senior Member

01-16-2014

"Things like nerfs and buffs are not reasons for a champion rework, because those can be usually accomplished through number tuning on damage, cooldowns, mana."

Proof that manaless champions are op. Nerf please :3


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ThatGuyWithRobe

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey all,

We are really excited about all of the reworks and visual updates that we have released recently and all of the ones that are coming this year. As great as they are, the question of "why change things?"
  • Upgrade old characters to our current quality standards - There is a lot of years old art that we can just improve by updating it (Nasus, so doge).
Thanks for the info scruffy.

Mostly i recommend focusing in that point.

PLENTY of champions are outdated in visuals compared to the new releases (well of course, since new is NEW). We might talk about the well known ''Triangle feet'' plenty of champions have, or the quality that has a champion compared to the ones that appear these releases.

Singed's appearance, i can't even think about anything aside from WC3, by ''perhaps'' his color and model scheme. True, singed is one of the 1st champs to appear, but gotta agree on that point that he, and plenty others deserve more attention than other fellows.

Because sometimes we compare somebody as Sion, vs the Visual update of Tryndamere, and the difference are high enough...

You mention that the game must have quality over quantity (most of the time), that's why i should recommend you updating visually every champ you can from the ''old'' rooster, so your game could have a better image towards the crowd.

(The splash arts are other problem that technically were SUPPOSED, to be fixed already, but there has been 0 information about it)


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Dotislav Pro

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratastok View Post
Karma rework was something not a lot of people liked,and old karma would be good on this season since now supports have access to gold.

Any reason why the karma rework was launched even tho most of the Karma playerbase disliked it?
This.


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EpicSmurfAccount

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Can you take a look at my Mk 1 Vayne rework while you're here? I think I'm right on the money.

Foreword
A vast majority of concerns pertaining to Vayne stem from her high damage output and ridiculous repositioning as well as her notoriously inconsistent lane phase. To target these issues, we must first identify what is core to her theme and playstyle, what makes her too much to deal with, and what can be improved in her kit.

Hunter's Instinct (Passive) New
Each time Vayne hits an enemy champion with an Auto-Attack or Ability, she gains a stack of Hunter's Instinct. (Stacks Reset After: 5/8/10 Seconds) For each stack of Hunter's Instinct, Vayne's movement speed is increased by 5/10/15. (Max: 3 Stacks)

With the changes proposed for Silver Bolts and Final Hour, I felt Vayne could use a little extra in the ways of dueling. As it stands, Vayne is rewarded only for going forward - but where is the sense in that? This change aims at promoting more strategic trades without allowing her to close the gap too quickly while also keeping her current chase potential at later levels.

Tumble (Q) Re-Balanced
Rolls a short distance. The next basic attack within 6 seconds deals Bonus True Damage that scales with Total Attack Damage (0.45/0.50/0.6/0.65/0.7).

With the suggested changes for Silver Bolts, Vayne loses her iconic True Damage. To compensate for this as well as to grant her more consistent poke and trade potential in lane I changed the bonus damage from Physical Damage to True Damage and increased the AD Scaling.

Silver Bolts (W) Re-Balanced
Every third consecutive attack or ability against an enemy deals an additional 30% of Total AD plus 4/5/6/7/8% of the Enemy's Maximum Health as Physical Damage. (Max: 200 damage vs. Monsters)

As it stands, Vayne players stray from more traditional carry builds in favor of Attack Speed items (generally Blade of the Ruined King followed by Phantom Dancer or Statikk Shiv). While this is a completely reasonable build path, I also want players to see value in stats such at Attack Damage and Armor Penetration. The former % HP True Damage is a little overbearing and is generally bad for the game where HP is effective against Tue Damage, and Armor is Strong against Physical Damage - Current Silver Bolts bypasses both of these counters. And while the argument that Attack Speed Reduction counters Silver Bolts is perfectly valid, it is actually a counter to Marksmen in general.

Condemn (E)
Fires a bolt that deals 45/80/115/150/185 (+50% Bonus Attack Damage) Physical Damage and knocks the enemy back. Enemies that collide with terrain take 45/80/115/150/185 (+50% Bonus Attack Damage) additional Physical Damage and are stunned for 1.5 seconds.

Final Hour (R) Reworked

Active: Cleanses all Crowd Control Effects. For the next 8/10/12 seconds Vayne gains 25/40/55 Bonus Attack Damage and 15/20/25% Tenacity. The Movement Speed from Hunter's Instinct is also increased by 50% for the duration.

Passive: Upon reaching 3 Stacks of Hunter's Instinct, Vayne's next Tumble stealths her for 1.5 seconds (5/3/1 Second Cooldown). When Final Hour is activated, the Passive is lost until the ability is off cooldown.

Vayne can seem a little squishy at times, especially against teams with Heavy Crowd Control Abilities. To resolve this issue, Activating Final Hour now Cleanses all Crowd Control effects affecting Vayne and grants her Tenacity for the Ability's Duration.
The stealthing during Tumble was changed to a Passive to always grant Vayne her much-loved potential to outplay. Activating Final Hour disables this Passive until it is off cooldown so as to make using it more timing-reliant.


These are just Foundations. I am open to suggestions for further buffs and feedback on my proposed changes. I hope my attempt at Reworking Vayne into a worthy AD Carry for S4 is at a more satisfactory level.


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kdHuCoB8S3

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Oh is that it? I thought it was just because you guys wanted to test unoriginal kits on existing characters to save the effort of designing a new base one, completely destroying how said existing champ used to be played pre-rework.

After that, the new champion (that still uses the name of an old champion for some reason) receives nerfs, ending up in a worse state than pre-rework, while their popularity remains around the same or lower!

Of course it would be easier to buff them from that point onwards, except it never happens.

Stop doing reworks and ruining champions please.


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Kalarepa

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
[*]Focus a character into a more unique role - If the opportunity is available, we would like for all characters to bring unique value and gameplay to their team.
You mean, make sure that every single hero clearly fills one of the 5 meta roles.

Speaking of uniqueness, I wouldn't have anything against reworks, if they didn't get rid off things that make champions unique, because it's "too hard to balance".
I miss old Sivir's Ricochet or old Karma's chain.


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Punish This Hole

Senior Member

01-16-2014

BuffMissFortunesManaCosts2014


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FatedTitan

Senior Member

01-16-2014

This doesn't explain Trundle at all. Trundle players asked for fixes to bugs with his kit for years. Finally, the fixes come, but with a complete retcon. Nothing in his kit screamed "ice troll" besides his pillar. Then, players frustratingly went to the forums with valid arguments about why this change shouldn't happen. But it was met with deaf ears. The dev responses to arguments were PR jargon that completely avoided the questions. And all of this doesn't even bring into account the lies that occurred. Grumpy Monkey said before the rework was even shown that we'd be keeping our leprous troll. Then after it was all done, and everyone had turned their attitudes from rage to grief, we asked to at least preserve his unique walk. We were told it would be done. To this day, Trundle does not walk on three limbs.

I'm not here to tell you to change Trundle back. It's not going to happen. It just won't. I've accepted that. But I do want to know these things.

1. Why lie to players to save face? I understand misunderstanding and such happens, but GM worked directly with the Trundle rework. It was a slap in the face to all Trundle players to see the change and to know we were blatantly lied to.

2. Do you feel that the Trundle rework was a success, not in the sense that you thematically arrived at what you desired as a company, but in the sense of reception, player feedback, forum feedback, and play rate? I say this because the Trundle rework announcement had hundreds of downvotes on it, more than any other rework by far.

3. What will Riot be doing differently to make sure that something like Trundle doesn't happen again? It's been stated by many devs that how Trundle was released and remade was a big mistake, not because of the change, but how they approached it with the players. They didn't gather player feedback, the feedback that was there they didn't take into account, etc. So what's being done to make sure this doesn't happen again to another niche champion?


And by the way, niche champions are possibly one of the most frustrating things to hear Riot talk about. They say there's nothing wrong with a niche champion, then completely retcon one of the most niche champions with one of the best lores in the game into a generic ice troll ******bag champion.

And yes, I do still hold a grudge from this and continue to reluctantly play Traditional Trundle when I do play Trundle. I was more of a Lil' Slugger Trundle fan. Such a great story told within that skin and was a great shout out to old school baseball. Now it looks like he signed up for an Adult Softball League. So yea I got Support to refund me that.


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Whynters

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Heal not Hate.

Stop nerfing and buff champions that need it.

#Supports
#FixMyJanna