Why do we do reworks?

First Riot Post
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Th3 Hunter

Senior Member

01-18-2014

The rengar nerf was way too hard.

Why he was nerfed:
His damage potential - Ok for this issue, before I begin, I will admit that his damage BURST is incredible if not the highest in game. It is the reason I play him. It is one of the reasons anyone plays him. It is just like how every champions has its highlights and makes players want to play that certain champion e.g. Blitzcrank for his game deciding pulls, Jax for being the most powerful duelist in game.
However, Rengar's burst is completely dependent on his ferocity stacks. To maximize his damage, he NEEDS to have three ferocity stacks ready, otherwise he will lose almost any trade (barring the fact that he is fed comparatively to the other champions). Rengar's damage potential is also only high when either he is (assuming now he has his 3 stacks ready):
1.) Fed
2.) In a Bush
3.) In his ultimate

For the first issue
He is fed.
For the second issue
Ward. Predictable, this just comes down to game awareness.
For the third issue
In team fights, put down a pink ward. Now you can completely predict where he is coming for and crowd control him to death.

Rengar is limited to his burst potential. He is not a champion that wins trades in fight without it and he's not a champion that can execute his burst in every situation.

Now, Rengar as a champion:
There are three ways you can play Rengar: Assasin, Assasin/Tank, and just Tank.
Assassin Rengar - Squishy, EXTREMELY easy to kill, can almost always guarantee a kill on a single target.
Assasin/Tank - Can survive hits but target will most likely escape.
Tank - You're not killing anyone.

Now, Rengar's ONLY means of killing someone in team fights is either by using his Ultimate, jumping to them from a bush, walking to them or Flashing to them. Those are his ONLY means of gap closing.
In Terms of Team fighting:
Ultimate - This is Rengar's only gap closer in a team fight.
Jumping to them from a bush - Only if you're lucky.
Walking to them - You will die.
Flashing to them - Long cooldown, not reliable, the enemy sees you, disengages from you, now you are most likely useless.

I would like to now compare Rengar to other assasins.
Here's a list of assasins and their gap close:
Zed - ultimate (unstoppable), shadowstep
Fizz - Dash (unstoppable), trident hop thing (unstoppable)
Khazix - Jump, Ultimate
Akali - Three Dashes (unstoppable)
Evelyn - Sprint, she's invisible
Kassadin - Teleport
Katerina - Teleport
Leblanc - Dash
Master Yi - Invincible Dash
Shaco - Invisible teleport
Talon - Teleports behind target, Ultimate

Every single assasin has a gapcloser on a very short cooldown. That is the point of an assasin, to be able to get close to their target and do high damage. All assasins are able to do this in short sucessions because they have an ability that is shorter than 10 seconds that allows them to do it multiple times in a fight.
Rengar is the only assasin that if not in contact with a bush or ultimate ready, will be unable to get close to his target.
For this reason, most teams will not pick Rengar as the assasin of choice because of his heavy reliance on his ultimate.

People saw triple q as a threat because of its high burst damage. The thing with triple q is that it has a time window. If it is not done in a 4 second time window or before his ultimate fades, he will be unable to execute it. Meaning at times, it will fail. Yes, if the triple q does work, if target is squishy, they are most likely dead. The fact is that some people do not have high enough reaction time. It is not hard to disengage from Rengar as soon as he jumps on you. Regardless of how much damage Rengar will be doing, that should be the immediate reaction of an assasin jumping on you. Once that distance is made, Rengar is completely useless. No ultimate. No gap close.

The fact that triple q isn't possible anymore makes Rengar's damage as an assasin role horrible. He cannot guarantee kills on any target as his damage output is simply not high enough.

This nerf was way too hard on Rengar, if anything, just make triple q harder to execute, make q's activation a 5 second window instead. His damage output is just not high enough on top of the fact that he cannot gap close.


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wapster

Senior Member

01-18-2014

I'm pretty sure you guys do reworks to ruin everyone's favorite niche champions.


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Labcown

Senior Member

01-18-2014

Which champion do think is in the coldish area, but really would like to see a rework on?


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peter1991

Junior Member

01-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenonTheStoic View Post
However I still think the rework needs more treasure.

Arggh, the thrill of the treasure is a scallywag pirates' life.. It would be awesome to have this more present in his rework whenever it may come to better carve out his 'pirate' theme


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ZenonTheStoic

Champion Designer

01-18-2014
15 of 25 Riot Posts

See, GMang, Peter gets me.


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RaideNN

Senior Member

01-18-2014

Riot does reworks cuz they suck at making balanced champions


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banthor11

Senior Member

01-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenonTheStoic View Post
Irelia - Coldish. I think we need to spend some more time thinking about what we want bruisers to be.

Akali - Cold. I feel she's in a decent place. Her dueling potential may be too high, but in team fights enemies have tools to control her. She benefited a little from the removal of oracle's, but it's not the end of the world (note that in the Voyboy game today we saw an Akali snowball crazy out of control. Any champion is going to be a problem at 11/0)

Gangplank - Hot hot hot. RiotGMang is working on a rework that has us all very excited. He very much keeps his global cannon barrage ult and gets one very cool new ability that I don't want to spoil. GMang will talk about it when he's ready. However I still think the rework needs more treasure.

Darius - Reasonably hot. We have a rework that sort of got 90% of the way there. We want to position Darius as a teamfight time bomb (get to max stacks bleed and dunk fools). One of our brilliant interns worked on this last year and RiotScruffy finished it up. It's currently mothballed as we wait for art resources (there are other reworks that are much higher on the list in terms of art). Scruffy himself can probably talk more about this. Personally I enjoyed jungling the new Darius a LOT in our internal playtests.
I think the main thing about Irelia that needs improvement is her Ultimate. It wastes a lot of the potential in the "lots-of-swords" idea, and in its current state doesn't feel like it has much impact beyond giving sheen procs. Beyond that I miss champions having different builds (AP, AD, hybrid) along the spectrum of AP and AD items (AP/Hybrid Irelia actually worked well as burst before her ratios were trashed).


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Gidor

Senior Member

01-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenonTheStoic View Post

Akali - Cold. I feel she's in a decent place. Her dueling potential may be too high, but in team fights enemies have tools to control her. She benefited a little from the removal of oracle's, but it's not the end of the world (note that in the Voyboy game today we saw an Akali snowball crazy out of control. Any champion is going to be a problem at 11/0)
Sorry but how is she in a 'decent place'. Shes an extremely toxic and anti fun champion when she gets ahead and snowballs way too hard.

After getting only a couple kills she essentially gets the ability to instantly kill any squishy champion. Whats worse is that shes impossible to kite or peel given her 3 spammable super long range gap closers.

Can you shut her down in teamfights? Sure, its possible, but getting instantly killed by a champion with no ability to react and no ability to kite is extremely unfun.

Werent champions like Diana and Zed nerfed for similar reasons? No ability to react to them just diving on you. And the thing is, both Diana and Zed have substantially more counterplay and can be kited unlike Akali.

She takes no skill to play whatsoever. She has nothing to miss and its nearly impossible for her mess up her combo. A champion that is so easy to play with such a huge margin for error should not being doing that much damage.

Any champion is gonna be a problem at 11-0. Not every champion has instant kill damage potential with 3 spammable gap closers and 0 skillshots to miss or dodge.

If Diana is 11-0 I can dodge her Q, or she can miss her Q. Furthermore, i can slow her or flash and kite her. She is not guaranteed an instant kill on me.
But a 11-0 Akali? There is no counterplay. She has nothing to miss, nothing to dodge. If i slow her and flash she has 2 more gap closers with no conditions.


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Zerglinator

Senior Member

01-18-2014

Oranges are still part of the GP rework, right? PEOPLE WILL BE FURIOUS IF THEY CAN'T GET THEIR VITAMIN C


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NVDax

Senior Member

01-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenonTheStoic View Post
Gangplank - Hot hot hot. RiotGMang is working on a rework that has us all very excited. He very much keeps his global cannon barrage ult and gets one very cool new ability that I don't want to spoil. GMang will talk about it when he's ready. However I still think the rework needs more treasure.
You're too good for this town, you have no idea how much I freaking love you right now. You're the only Rioter who has said ANYTHING about his rework, at all in recent days. You have given me hope that the pirate will be viable again, that I won't be labeled a troll for picking him.