Riot Would You Please Update Warwick

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Marisa

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMcNinja View Post
I'd really love Warwick to become a tank rather than a high-damage-get-bursted squishy. That may just be personal bias, as I love playing tanks, but that just kind of feels right to me for Warwick as a champion. He's a big bad wolf, who can take a big hit and come back swinging, not some little puppy that just gets destroyed immediately, and that's kind of where I want the rework to go.
But Warwick already has a kit that enables him to be a tank; his Q scales off of enemy HP or its high base damage and his passive is a flat on-hit that scales with level. This means that he can build CDR and Tank or maybe Attack Speed and still heal for the same amount. If Warwick became LS-based, he'd need to get those same health returns by actually building damage so his LS healed anything, which means that his build would become squishier.

Warwick is already a tank; LS tends to be territory for characters who want to scale multiplicatively, which is often means losing out on actual tank items.


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MrHaveANiceDay

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenonTheStoic View Post
Hey guys!

(Zenon saying important things)
I think Warwick needs a tuneup more than a re-imagining. Others here might not agree, but I play Warwick as a tanky initiator. I love, love zooming in and jumping on that high-value target with my Infinite Duress. I adore his W, because I think there are far too few noticeable team-buff abilities--Sona's are minor because of how many she has and don't have strong visual indicators, Sivir's has always been an ultimate-related staple of her kit, Gangplank's is comparable to WW's in regards to both its visual indication and effects.

Rioters have been here before, commenting on what makes a tank, a tank; initiation, utility, sustained damage threat (directly or enabling allies to damage).

If we're looking at Warwick as more of a tank, however, I think there are some design gaps in his kit that could be addressed with some skill adjustments/reworks. I'll share a few thoughts here.

1. E - Blood Scent could have much more interaction, skill, and judicial use. Right now, Blood Scent is an essentially zero-consideration skill. The only consideration of Blood Scent is 'do I deactivate this skill so they don't know I'm coming,' but even this supposed consideration is nearly nonexistent:
  • The first rank of Blood Scent has such a small range, the situations in which Blood Scent would provide warning WITHOUT the enemy having vision of you is almost nonexistent.
  • Most situations from the latter point involve a failure of the enemy to ward or have appropriate map awareness. Their poor play =/= a skill consideration on Warwick's part.
  • Later ranks of Blood Scent come in during a time when having reliable, uncounterable vision of enemies below 50% is much more important than 'possibly missing a lane gank.' Later ranks come in at midgame onwards, when the laning phase is ended/ending, and raw vision is more important.
  • Any of these ganking choice scenarios indicate an enemy is below 50% in the first place.

I have a few suggestions to improve Blood Scent's usefulness and utility.

1. Blood Scent is always on. "Wait, isn't this a nerf? What about those uncommon situations where it could spoil a gank?" No, this is a tradeoff for the ability's increased power.

2. Blood Scent has a new active component.
Component reads "Warwick can activate Blood Scent when low-health enemies are in range, halving his own bonus speed but inspiring allies within [800] Range to gain 8% movement speed for each enemy champion effected by Blood Scent. The number of enemies counted for this speed boost is capped at 1/2/3/4/5 and the buff lasts for 2.5 seconds. Cooldown 40/38/36/34/32 seconds."

In addition to its passive component, which might bear minor nerfs on speed% in light of this change, this new component gives the ability value and choice scenarios. In many teamfight scenarios, the question will become "do I activate this as soon as only a handful of enemies drops below 50%, or do I hold out (hope I don't die) and wait for additional enemies/enemy to drop below 50% (gamble the fight will go your way more quickly)?" This requires more judicial uses for maximum situational impact.

It's also interesting to note that, at the first few ranks, Warwick is giving his allies more of a %MS buff than he himself would be receiving for the duration. This helps enforce his early-to-midgame role of 'Initiate, allies follow up.'

2. In addition to Blood Scent, I think Warwick's tank-related damage threat could be addressed through a change to either is Passive or to Infinite Duress.

As-is, I believe Warwick's damage threat is too low heading into the mid to late game. Even with CDR, his biggest 'chunking' ability (his Q) has a cooldown that will only be used once or twice in the heat of a fight--after that, he's either dead or chasing down enemies who have lost the fight regardless.

I believe his passive has good damage threat potential, but it's too little in the lategame, where health and magic resistances are so much stronger.

So, here's the suggestion.

"Eternal Thirst deals 6 bonus damage to enemy champions (regardless of stacks), increasing to 8/10/12 at levels 6, 11, and 16."

Seriously, that's it. I don't have a shocking rework idea for this or anything. While his ultimate is a big initiation and a great attention-grabber, it actually tends to have very little damage threat (no competent team is going to let you jump their carry without stunning you almost instantly). It's past the point of Warwick's Infinite Duress that needs to be addressed. This tweak to his passive makes Warwick a much more sustained damage threat to characters over the course of a fight.


I really love Warwick, and would like to see him catch up to the champions of today in terms of visibility and viability. However, I think hit kit is a bundle of potential as-is.


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c7g Laser

Senior Member

01-16-2014

On the topic of what feels "Warwicky", I feel his Ult and E should remain relatively unchanged. Maybe an active placed on his E or something and make it a passive/active rather than a toggle. That feeling of being able to chase someone down and then rip them to shreds really fulfills that "Big Bad Wolf" mentality. Honestly, his W and moreso his Q feel like they fit but not as much and could be replaced at least thematically. Plus Q has been problematic in the past on the APwick builds. I feel like maybe giving him a skill akin to Trundle's Q would make a lot of sense as he's supposedly a Lifestealing Drain Tank.


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xInfamousOne

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHaveANiceDay View Post
I think Warwick needs a tuneup more than a re-imagining. Others here might not agree, but I play Warwick as a tanky initiator. I love, love zooming in and jumping on that high-value target with my Infinite Duress. I adore his W, because I think there are far too few noticeable team-buff abilities--Sona's are minor because of how many she has and don't have strong visual indicators, Sivir's has always been an ultimate-related staple of her kit, Gangplank's is comparable to WW's in regards to both its visual indication and effects.

Rioters have been here before, commenting on what makes a tank, a tank; initiation, utility, sustained damage threat (directly or enabling allies to damage).

If we're looking at Warwick as more of a tank, however, I think there are some design gaps in his kit that could be addressed with some skill adjustments/reworks. I'll share a few thoughts here.

1. E - Blood Scent could have much more interaction, skill, and judicial use. Right now, Blood Scent is an essentially zero-consideration skill. The only consideration of Blood Scent is 'do I deactivate this skill so they don't know I'm coming,' but even this supposed consideration is nearly nonexistent:
  • The first rank of Blood Scent has such a small range, the situations in which Blood Scent would provide warning WITHOUT the enemy having vision of you is almost nonexistent.
  • Most situations from the latter point involve a failure of the enemy to ward or have appropriate map awareness. Their poor play =/= a skill consideration on Warwick's part.
  • Later ranks of Blood Scent come in during a time when having reliable, uncounterable vision of enemies below 50% is much more important than 'possibly missing a lane gank.' Later ranks come in at midgame onwards, when the laning phase is ended/ending, and raw vision is more important.
  • Any of these ganking choice scenarios indicate an enemy is below 50% in the first place.

I have a few suggestions to improve Blood Scent's usefulness and utility.

1. Blood Scent is always on. "Wait, isn't this a nerf? What about those uncommon situations where it could spoil a gank?" No, this is a tradeoff for the ability's increased power.

2. Blood Scent has a new active component.
Component reads "Warwick can activate Blood Scent when low-health enemies are in range, halving his own bonus speed but inspiring allies within [800] Range to gain 8% movement speed for each enemy champion effected by Blood Scent. The number of enemies counted for this speed boost is capped at 1/2/3/4/5 and the buff lasts for 2.5 seconds. Cooldown 40/38/36/34/32 seconds."

In addition to its passive component, which might bear minor nerfs on speed% in light of this change, this new component gives the ability value and choice scenarios. In many teamfight scenarios, the question will become "do I activate this as soon as only a handful of enemies drops below 50%, or do I hold out (hope I don't die) and wait for additional enemies/enemy to drop below 50% (gamble the fight will go your way more quickly)?" This requires more judicial uses for maximum situational impact.

It's also interesting to note that, at the first few ranks, Warwick is giving his allies more of a %MS buff than he himself would be receiving for the duration. This helps enforce his early-to-midgame role of 'Initiate, allies follow up.'

2. In addition to Blood Scent, I think Warwick's tank-related damage threat could be addressed through a change to either is Passive or to Infinite Duress.

As-is, I believe Warwick's damage threat is too low heading into the mid to late game. Even with CDR, his biggest 'chunking' ability (his Q) has a cooldown that will only be used once or twice in the heat of a fight--after that, he's either dead or chasing down enemies who have lost the fight regardless.

I believe his passive has good damage threat potential, but it's too little in the lategame, where health and magic resistances are so much stronger.

So, here's the suggestion.

"Eternal Thirst deals 6 bonus damage to enemy champions (regardless of stacks), increasing to 8/10/12 at levels 6, 11, and 16."

Seriously, that's it. I don't have a shocking rework idea for this or anything. While his ultimate is a big initiation and a great attention-grabber, it actually tends to have very little damage threat (no competent team is going to let you jump their carry without stunning you almost instantly). It's past the point of Warwick's Infinite Duress that needs to be addressed. This tweak to his passive makes Warwick a much more sustained damage threat to characters over the course of a fight.


I really love Warwick, and would like to see him catch up to the champions of today in terms of visibility and viability. However, I think hit kit is a bundle of potential as-is.
I dont like that bloodscent idea at all no offense.

Warwick needs a slow, stun, or fear added into his W or E... that will help him jungling in a big way, and it seems that is their plan is to add something like that which is good.

WW is a tank, and a lifestealing one, but he should remain a guy who if left vs another champ 1 vs 1, should own that champ because of tankiness and lifesteal


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Deathshroud09

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Eternal Thirst: Same as before, add some form of attack speed steal to make up for the Hunters Call rework, i feel that Warwick needs some sort of innate AS steroid to synergize with his stacking lifesteal.

Hungering Strike: Make it AOE to allow WW to have some form of wave clear outside of Hydra, adjust heal ratios if necessary, this is mostly to increase his jungle viability. Also update animation to look better and reflect this AOE.

Hunters Call: Completely rework, replace with a fear. The range of this ability increases when Blood Scent is activated. Also add a howling animation.

Blood Scent: Keep it as-is, really fun and unique ability that is core to the Warwick feel.

Infinite Duress: Update animation to be more fierce and less goofy looking, remove the blink and add a jump animation (WW is untargetable while jumping).

Overall rework Warwick visually, especially the way he walks, and possibly allow him to go on all fours whenever blood scent activates for all skins?


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xInfamousOne

Senior Member

01-16-2014

I like your above suggestions... maybe have an active on bloodscent that allows a small jump onto enemy champion once WW is close enough..

that would be a cool kit


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Deathshroud09

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by xInfamousOne View Post
I like your above suggestions... maybe have an active on bloodscent that allows a small jump onto enemy champion once WW is close enough..

that would be a cool kit
Thats what Infinite Duress is for, i would prefer him to not be overloaded with mobility.


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MrHaveANiceDay

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by xInfamousOne View Post
I dont like that bloodscent idea at all no offense.

Warwick needs a slow, stun, or fear added into his W or E... that will help him jungling in a big way, and it seems that is their plan is to add something like that which is good.

WW is a tank, and a lifestealing one, but he should remain a guy who if left vs another champ 1 vs 1, should own that champ because of tankiness and lifesteal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathshroud09 View Post
Eternal Thirst: Same as before, add some form of attack speed steal to make up for the Hunters Call rework, i feel that Warwick needs some sort of innate AS steroid to synergize with his stacking lifesteal.

Hungering Strike: Make it AOE to allow WW to have some form of wave clear outside of Hydra, adjust heal ratios if necessary, this is mostly to increase his jungle viability. Also update animation to look better and reflect this AOE.

Hunters Call: Completely rework, replace with a fear. The range of this ability increases when Blood Scent is activated. Also add a howling animation.
I don't want to rag on these suggestions too much, but what you guys are asking for is to give Warwick:

-Wave clear
-Additional CC (he already has suppress)
-Additional jungle power (he can already do a near-potionless jungle from level 1)
-A desire to make him 'a lifestealing tank who also murders everyone in 1v1'

I think this is exactly the kind of catch-all fighter direction Riot wants to avoid.


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Maximum Chogath

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathshroud09 View Post
Eternal Thirst: Same as before, add some form of attack speed steal to make up for the Hunters Call rework, i feel that Warwick needs some sort of innate AS steroid to synergize with his stacking lifesteal.

Hungering Strike: Make it AOE to allow WW to have some form of wave clear outside of Hydra, adjust heal ratios if necessary, this is mostly to increase his jungle viability. Also update animation to look better and reflect this AOE.

Hunters Call: Completely rework, replace with a fear. The range of this ability increases when Blood Scent is activated. Also add a howling animation.

Blood Scent: Keep it as-is, really fun and unique ability that is core to the Warwick feel.

Infinite Duress: Update animation to be more fierce and less goofy looking, remove the blink and add a jump animation (WW is untargetable while jumping).

Overall rework Warwick visually, especially the way he walks, and possibly allow him to go on all fours whenever blood scent activates for all skins?
I like most of this, but I would definitely avoid giving warwick any sort of aoe. His slow jungle times help to keep him balanced, and in teamfights his goal is to dive onto the adc with ult and then just focus the **** out of them. an AoE ability would seem a bit out of place on him. However, I do like the idea of moving the AS steroid to the passive, and turning his w into some sort of cc. A fear would be great, but maybe too strong. A slow like volibears roar might be better.


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Deathshroud09

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHaveANiceDay View Post
I don't want to rag on these suggestions too much, but what you guys are asking for is to give Warwick:

-Wave clear
-Additional CC (he already has suppress)
-Additional jungle power (he can already do a near-potionless jungle from level 1)
-A desire to make him 'a lifestealing tank who also murders everyone in 1v1'

I think this is exactly the kind of catch-all fighter direction Riot wants to avoid.
Warwick is a 1v1 hunter, Mundo would do better in teamfights. He needs at least some form of small AOE (emphasis on small) or else his jungle will always be weak, he may have sustain but his clear time is so low you might as well just buy pots and use any other jungler because you will always fall behind as Warwick. Fear isn't exactly the best CC out there, it would do no damage itself either and the cooldown should not be low on it, mostly wanting this addition to avoid him just being a walking ultimate which he kinda is outside of laning phase.

Infinite Duress does not usually bring champions down to half health, so you can escape after it in a 1v1 scenario and regroup with your team. The fear could possibly be made into a skillshot with a soundwave effect, although i'm not quite sure it would be necessary.