Riot Would You Please Update Warwick

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BerserkerMagnum

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Member

01-16-2014

I really don't feel WW is underclassed ATM - he's currently a melee bruiser that can build anywhere from carry to bruiser to full tank, but is ideal as a bruiser. WW is not at all "weak" or "UP" - his problem is that he's only effective in a melee range vs a single target, over time. He has no burst/AOE/range/CC and hence his playstyle is pretty limited.

Please don't "buff" Warwick by taking away the essence of what he is, which is a hunter (not an assassin). He can either be used as a carry to catch up to and finish off enemies low on health, or as a Tank who deals a moderate amount of damage over a long time but is very difficult to kill due to his sustain.

The direction I would like to see Warwick go in, if change is absolutely necessary, is giving him burst+mobility+sustain that is conditional on certain criteria (currently the enemy total and current health for his q and e, respectively). Give him an ability (or a set of abilities) that do damage and/or grant sustain conditionally. Take away the damage and sustain Warwick gains on his autoattacks and instead transfer that power to his abilities, opening up room for strategic engagement while keeping his mobility and removing his ability to simply paw his way through enemies via autoattacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenonTheStoic View Post

Personally I believe there are two main roles champions with no meaningful interaction at range (aka melees) can bring to the team: disruption and killing power. This means tanks/assassins (and the ill-defined melee ADC). I don't think there is room in between the two extremes for particularly healthy kits.

Warwick can go either way, but if we want life steal to be a meaningful mechanic on his new kit, I firmly believe he belongs in the former camp: tanks. Life steal on a fragile high damage kit is inherently broken.
I feel that the new Warwick should be playable as either a carry with high risk high reward or as a bruiser with less risk and consequently less reward. What I don't want him to become is a tank who just runs into the enemy team, pins down the adc, and then hits w and runs around autoattacking till he dies. I also don't want him to be a tank with tons of CC. We have enough of those. Let him be a hunter who heals off of his foes, after all, "It's only fun when they run".


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exec3

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenonTheStoic View Post
Warwick can go either way, but if we want life steal to be a meaningful mechanic on his new kit, I firmly believe he belongs in the former camp: tanks. Life steal on a fragile high damage kit is inherently broken. Go make a new account and play a triple Blood Thirster Master Yi (don't actually do this please; this is what we Germans refer to as a Gedankenexperiment, a thought experiment). You are either killed before your LS becomes meaningful--which is totally useless for your team--or you heal up faster than the enemy can burst you down, in which case you are now an unkillable god of slaughter. Great fun for you, reason to never ever play the game again for the enemy.
Sums up my experience against a Draven with 2 Bloodthirsters today, I burst him from 100-2 and then 2 autoattacks brings him back up to 90, that's just not balanced nor fair. Lifesteal needs nerfs or Bloodthirster needs to be made unique but I digress. I really wouldn't like to see a return of the days when WW would continually heal for more than you could ever dish out so hopefully you can find some way to make the lifesteal tank gameplay healthy.


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Crys3s

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Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenonTheStoic View Post
Hey guys!

The TL;DR is: Bruisers were a reaction to ADCs being too strong, and as a result they got all of the tools for all of the situations. This is deeply unhealthy for the game, and as our playerbase accrues more and more mastery with a particular bruiser kit, we have to continue nerfing that kit as its unbalanced strengths are brought to light (see: Irelia)

Personally I believe there are two main roles champions with no meaningful interaction at range (aka melees) can bring to the team: disruption and killing power. This means tanks/assassins (and the ill-defined melee ADC). I don't think there is room in between the two extremes for particularly healthy kits.

Warwick can go either way, but if we want life steal to be a meaningful mechanic on his new kit, I firmly believe he belongs in the former camp: tanks. Life steal on a fragile high damage kit is inherently broken.

A healthy wolf will dip in and out of the enemy team, smartly using the tools at his disposal to create maximum havoc while always healing up just enough health to not die. The enemy either zones him out of his heal (indicating that his life steal needs to be gated; probably range gated, potentially build-up gated) or makes one coordinated effort to burst him down when he goes for a risky play. Either way, he doesn't single-handedly kill anyone, or if he does, it takes him 30 seconds. And he uses paws.
I'm not sure if I would place Warwick in a tank category - you say that he is better suited for a tank role because lifesteal is inherently broken on a high damage kit. The problem is that too many builds utilize the general set of something to the effect of - Mag. Resist Boots, sunfire cape, cleaver, visage, etc etc.

However I think you have the opportunity here to offer something that made Warwick a little more unique - and thats his usage of Ability Power. He was the only jungler that I ever played that was effective with an AP skill - and it was fun. In some ways this makes me think of Skarner. I think a more passive Ult and more CC on base skills would help change his direction in the game while still being able to dish out some damage. As it was his Q was the bane of his existence for lanewick and most people max out his W. It would be nice if all 3 were as cohesive as lets say - ziggs kit.

Warwick as is doesn't really feel like a hunter kind of champion (non GC related). I am also not sure if basing his playstyle on Lifesteal or health is necessarily the best option either - Vladamir is a good example of that. I would like to see more of a Rengar like playstyle with greater mobility during fights (not counting bush hopping.


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Marisa

Senior Member

01-16-2014

The problem with a LS tank is the same problem as with any melee carry; any hard CC or, rather, anything that stops the character from attacking, even slows potentially due to kiting, not only negates the character's damage but also shuts down its defensive steroid, the extra HP gained from lifestealing. I honestly feel like Warwick in his prime and even currently already fills the role of a lifesteal tank; at least, in the same way that Irelia fulfilled the definition of lifesteal tank way back when she was first introduced in her original spotlight. He's able to fight even at low health and apply sustained damage because of the burst healing from Q and from the sustained HP return from his passive respectively. He already dips in and out of fights because of his E; sustained fighting allows him mobility that, along with tankiness, permits him the ability to exit fights after people are brought to low health. That sounds like what a lifesteal tank is supposed to do; putting extra focus on actual LS stats seems bound to make him more of a noob-stomp character instead of a more balanced one.

I don't believe that Warwick needs that much work right now. He fell out of favor primarily because his jungle was bad, but Warwick jungle was only ever good when the jungle role wasn't an early gank role.


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Acid Reigns

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Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by BerserkerMagnum View Post
I really don't feel WW is underclassed ATM - he's currently a melee bruiser that can build anywhere from carry to bruiser to full tank, but is ideal as a bruiser. WW is not at all "weak" or "UP" - his problem is that he's only effective in a melee range vs a single target, over time. He has no burst/AOE/range/CC and hence his playstyle is pretty limited.

Please don't "buff" Warwick by taking away the essence of what he is, which is a hunter (not an assassin). He can either be used as a carry to catch up to and finish off enemies low on health, or as a Tank who deals a moderate amount of damage over a long time but is very difficult to kill due to his sustain.

The direction I would like to see Warwick go in, if change is absolutely necessary, is giving him burst+mobility+sustain that is conditional on certain criteria (currently the enemy total and current health for his q and e, respectively). Give him an ability (or a set of abilities) that do damage and/or grant sustain conditionally. Take away the damage and sustain Warwick gains on his autoattacks and instead transfer that power to his abilities, opening up room for strategic engagement while keeping his mobility and removing his ability to simply paw his way through enemies via autoattacks.



I feel that the new Warwick should be playable as either a carry with high risk high reward or as a bruiser with less risk and consequently less reward. What I don't want him to become is a tank who just runs into the enemy team, pins down the adc, and then hits w and runs around autoattacking till he dies. I also don't want him to be a tank with tons of CC. We have enough of those. Let him be a hunter who heals off of his foes, after all, "It's only fun when they run".
As a WW main I think I can agree with half of this.
I don't want to see him become some mega tank who just does no damage anymore. Being able to hunt people down and kill them alone is extremely important.

However, I do like his passive, because his ult promotes On Hit Damage.
If they remove this, two things happen: His ult becomes significantly weaker, and Wit's End becomes significantly worse on him, which also means he can't really itemize damage anymore.

Also, I'd like to say that I really wouldn't mind seeing his W go in order to gain other power. It's kind of a dumb skill tbh, it's extremely powerful especially for objective taking, however it doesn't FEEL powerful. This is exactly the kinda of thing riot claims they hate!

I know I just said I like him being AA focused with his passive, but honestly this gives so much AS you can't really utilize it anyway unless you're attacking something that doesn't move such as Baron or a tower. Most of the power in a fight is from the AoE portion of the buff.

If he's gonna have a big AoE buff, honestly I'd prefer it be a MS buff, to give a 'hunt them down like a pack of wolves' kinda feel to your team.


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xInfamousOne

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Thanks for this info! Personally I love playing ww as a lifestealing massive tank who also does enough damage to eventually take someone down... Certainly not like an adc.. But still pack a punch..

I feel his passives should include his bloodscent amd attack speed buff to friendly allies in some way and tjat one of his E or W should have a fear alow or stun.. Like a deadly howl that fears enemies similar to fiddles... And his ult and Q should be left mostly alone in my opinion as those make him himself. I hope you improve WW the jungle hunter and not WW the solo laner


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Acid Reigns

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Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa View Post
The problem with a LS tank is the same problem as with any melee carry; any hard CC or, rather, anything that stops the character from attacking, even slows potentially due to kiting, not only negates the character's damage but also shuts down its defensive steroid, the extra HP gained from lifestealing. I honestly feel like Warwick in his prime and even currently already fills the role of a lifesteal tank; at least, in the same way that Irelia fulfilled the definition of lifesteal tank way back when she was first introduced in her original spotlight. He's able to fight even at low health and apply sustained damage because of the burst healing from Q and from the sustained HP return from his passive respectively. He already dips in and out of fights because of his E; sustained fighting allows him mobility that, along with tankiness, permits him the ability to exit fights after people are brought to low health. That sounds like what a lifesteal tank is supposed to do; putting extra focus on actual LS stats seems bound to make him more of a noob-stomp character instead of a more balanced one.

I don't believe that Warwick needs that much work right now. He fell out of favor primarily because his jungle was bad, but Warwick jungle was only ever good when the jungle role wasn't an early gank role.
This is 100% true. I really do not want to see him become ACTUALLY LS or even AD based for that matter.


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Maximum Chogath

Senior Member

01-16-2014

I'd really love Warwick to become a tank rather than a high-damage-get-bursted squishy. That may just be personal bias, as I love playing tanks, but that just kind of feels right to me for Warwick as a champion. He's a big bad wolf, who can take a big hit and come back swinging, not some little puppy that just gets destroyed immediately, and that's kind of where I want the rework to go.


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CBlazer

Senior Member

01-16-2014

With his escalating on-hit passive lifesteal, plus his big attack speed buff, plus the fact that his ult triggers a flurry of autoattacks, plus the fact that his Q resembles his autoattack -- the fantasy aesthetic that Warwick fulfills for me is that of the ferocious, tenacious animal that just. attacks. really. really. fast. It latches onto your leg, and you can't get it off you!

There's an opportunity here to create a working on-hit oriented melee character. Something that escalates, mid-battle with high attack speed into a crescendo of paws, speed, and damage. A champion embodiment of Guinsoo's Rageblade. As a Warwick player for years now, that's when he is the most fun for me. That is my Warwick fantasy.


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Rasgevous

Member

01-16-2014

Am I one of the only people who likes the current WW? Some parts of his kit are a bit stale, but I do believe he's much stronger than people seem to think he is; he does well in top lane.


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