Riot Would You Please Update Warwick

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Chingmeister

Senior Member

01-18-2014

I just know once they change him to a low damage lifesteal tank I'll just drop him and start playing Sion. 100% attack speed/lifesteal steriod for 20 seconds. Spammable stun. Add Hydra for AoE lifesteal attacks, SV to bring lifesteal up to around 140%, Chain vest. GG.

Why play a low damage lifesteal tank when a high damage lifesteal tank already exists?


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Isu Note Sa Fing

Junior Member

01-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenonTheStoic View Post
Hey guys!

I'm currently hard at work bringing you the updated Xerath. Once that's out the door, I'll focus my energies on the Warwick rework. We have tested some early experimental kits and gotten some very good early data points, particularly as to what feels "Warwicky" and what doesn't; what must we keep and what can we drop.

At the heart of the discussion of what Warwick should be lies a conversation about the role we refer to as "bruiser". Ryan "Morello" Scott, our Lead Content Designer, gave a great write-up on the problems of the role here:

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...09164#44409164

The TL;DR is: Bruisers were a reaction to ADCs being too strong, and as a result they got all of the tools for all of the situations. This is deeply unhealthy for the game, and as our playerbase accrues more and more mastery with a particular bruiser kit, we have to continue nerfing that kit as its unbalanced strengths are brought to light (see: Irelia)

Personally I believe there are two main roles champions with no meaningful interaction at range (aka melees) can bring to the team: disruption and killing power. This means tanks/assassins (and the ill-defined melee ADC). I don't think there is room in between the two extremes for particularly healthy kits.

Warwick can go either way, but if we want life steal to be a meaningful mechanic on his new kit, I firmly believe he belongs in the former camp: tanks. Life steal on a fragile high damage kit is inherently broken. Go make a new account and play a triple Blood Thirster Master Yi (don't actually do this please; this is what we Germans refer to as a Gedankenexperiment, a thought experiment). You are either killed before your LS becomes meaningful--which is totally useless for your team--or you heal up faster than the enemy can burst you down, in which case you are now an unkillable god of slaughter. Great fun for you, reason to never ever play the game again for the enemy.

A healthy wolf will dip in and out of the enemy team, smartly using the tools at his disposal to create maximum havoc while always healing up just enough health to not die. The enemy either zones him out of his heal (indicating that his life steal needs to be gated; probably range gated, potentially build-up gated) or makes one coordinated effort to burst him down when he goes for a risky play. Either way, he doesn't single-handedly kill anyone, or if he does, it takes him 30 seconds. And he uses paws.

This is my guiding direction on the kit, and while we currently have a passive and four abilities, these are all very likely to change in the future, so there's not much of a point talking about them right now. Instead I would invite discussion about my direction: is this a Warwick you can see yourself playing? Specifically, here are two videos that guide me in remaking my most favourite jungler in League:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avRTOEjQtDg&t=19m15s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBpzXIIM6Fk

Note how in both videos Warwick gives zero ****s and the colour caster is reduced to giggling. That's what I want to do. I want to make colour casters giggle. Especially if they're me.
You say warwick needs a whole skill rework.
That is very ambitious.
They say warwick is very under power and useless jungler compared to junglers.
Please check out "ilymm"
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/1...0#ranked-stats
He is a warwick jungler.
Mains jungle ww since beta version.
By far the best warwick player in LoL with the best KDA in atleast 1000 games played with warwick.
How can you say he needs a rework when you see his kind of skills in jungle warwick?
He is under power vs other junglers. That is correct. Does not mean he needs a whole rework other than visual and animation rework. Warwick just need a buff or a single change to a skill that help him keep up with other junglers.


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Firefang Warwick

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Senior Member

01-18-2014

Because he doesn't need a rework because people think he is bad. Riot mostly wants to rework him because he has stupid mechanics in his kit that make him incredibly unfun to play against. This is why he has been kept in the spot he is in for the past 2 years.

Edit: You can not directly buff Warwick in any way with his current kit. Just look how crazy he got with the defense tree changes. Not saying it made him OP, but it helped him a ton in the lane.


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archonshope

Senior Member

01-18-2014

It's time to hunt!

First of all I would like to thank you Zenon for the insight you have given us so far. (Ps @Warwick_Wolf will be disappointed if it would take you a year, but no sweat bro, better take your time and make him top notch then rush it )

I personally already really like Warwick as he is. I have played him quite a lot on my main and my smurf on EUW both in the jungle and in the top lane. I honestly even prefer him in the top lane with his current kit, but 200% agree that should you rework/tweak him, your focus should be to make him king of the jungle once more.

Fun fact, I've been playing league since S1 and back in the days where he was your standard jungler, boy did I find him OP lol. From season 2 and onwards I've mostly started maining jungle and also got inspired by WWbot/Umashi to pick WW up in the top lane .

The most fun moments and what is core for me in Warwicks kit is "smelling" low HP targets, chasing your target and finishing off your pray. Warwicks core design is being a hunter and tracking your enemies. Countless times have I chased enemies past 2 - 3 towers just to finish them of. Was it smart to chase them ? Most of the time not, but it was fun as hell We already have 2 other hunter type of champions : Rengar and Kha'zix who are more of a sneaky / assassin type of hunters, but honestly that's not how I envision Warwick.

Right now Warwick is a pretty easy to play, but stays still really fun for a lot of players because of his thematic hunter role. The first thing you'll have to change will be his ultimate, like a lot of people already mentioned there is little counter play and adding some kind of skill shot / leap would give more leverage to be more fun to play or play against a Warwick.

This might sound crazy but I would not give WW to much CC. How I look at it is this, WW is a bit like shivana, they are very scary when they reach 6. I agree that currently his ganks pre 6 are lackluster for a jungler and that his clear time is not the best. The thing is he already has sustain which can allow you to stay in the jungle, what should be improved though is his clear speed. The thing you have to keep in mind is : faster clear speed = faster to level 6 = Warwick will get scarier a lot sooner!

"A healthy wolf doesn't single-handedly kill anyone, or if he does, it takes him 30 seconds." Like others mentioned, this doesn't sound like a fun to play wolf. It's also very inconsistent with his core gameplay and lore. Warwick is a hunter and you would never chase someone down if you know you can't kill him. What he needs to stay balanced is high MS, moderate damage and lifesteal, low to moderate CC (It's fun when they run )


A quick word about your vision and that of Morello about "bruisers". Maybe it's me, I'm from EUW and English is not my native language, but I do not understand what the problem is you see in them ? What Morello tried to say, seemed to vague to me and the only thing I grasped from it was that they are to strong ? How so ? Also if you ever nerf all bruisers across the board, ADC will dominate once more, if you then nerf ADC, mages will rock, if you nerf mages support will take their place and be the new mages, and if all those other classes have been nerfed tanks will be king of the hill because nobody will be able to kill them. Seems like a vicious circle to me and right now the game seems closest to balanced since a long time, every class keeps in check at least one other class. Their is great diversity which is really good for game health and removing one of those classes doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe it will make more sense when you guys give us more info on the big bruiser patch update you guys at riot have been talking about

cheers!


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TheFrozenIsles

Member

01-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chingmeister View Post
I just know once they change him to a low damage lifesteal tank I'll just drop him and start playing Sion. 100% attack speed/lifesteal steriod for 20 seconds. Spammable stun. Add Hydra for AoE lifesteal attacks, SV to bring lifesteal up to around 140%, Chain vest. GG.

Why play a low damage lifesteal tank when a high damage lifesteal tank already exists?
Because that high damage lifesteal tank you speak of is all ready getting a rework?


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Grey Verve

Member

01-19-2014

Good to hear that someone is working on the Wolf. Will look forward to the discussions about Warwick once Xerath gets up and going.


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Dreegan

Senior Member

01-19-2014

Warwick should be a life-steal tank in the same respect that Aatrox is, I could agree with this. But you're going to have to give him a lot more mobility. But what I don't agree with, is your feeling that Warwick shouldn't be killing people. Because he definitely should be killing people. Not like an assassin, mind you, but definitely the way a Hunter would kill his prey. With persistence, and being inescapable. Warwick's THEME puts him in the same vein as Rengar, and I think you're afraid of making the two too similiar to each other, which is fair... however. Warwick is a hunter. Not a front-line, not a tank(per-se). But he is supposed to cause havok, and make the enemies afraid of him.

The keys to Warwick's theme meshing with his kit come in the form of Blood Scent, and Infinite Duress. It comes to mind to me that, no matter what's going on, if I smell blood, I'm going to chase someone down and pounce on them. And I believe those two skills interact with each other very well.

Just imagine for a second, heading to a lane that just blew up from fighting, and people are peeling away. You're fresh out of your jungle, having finished a buff or dragon while your team fought. As you get closer your Blood Scent pops and your finger goes to your R button. A ground targeted pounce ability that will execute/burst people who are effected by your blood scent. You dive across a wall under their tower, and blow them up, the kill rejuvenating your health and giving you strength to help you survive escaping the tower.

Something along those lines feels more like being Warwick to me. A hunter, someone who chases his enemies down, kills them, feeds off their blood and becomes stronger, before either leaving, or diving back into the fray with renewed vigor. He should be a character that uses the element of surprise, and any other tricks he has to track, hunt, and kill his prey. His threat as a "tank" should come from his ability to attack those around him to keep himself going till he reaches, or is able to pounce and annihilate his target.

Just an idea, but I think Warwick's theme is very unique and special, and should be the focus of this rework. NOT "Warwick can't die, gives no ****s, but doesn't really do anything aside from running around like a teemo with no damage, but can't die."


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Substitute Maid

Member

01-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenonTheStoic View Post
Personally I believe there are two main roles champions with no meaningful interaction at range (aka melees) can bring to the team: disruption and killing power. This means tanks/assassins (and the ill-defined melee ADC). I don't think there is room in between the two extremes for particularly healthy kits.
You cannot be serious. If I may quote you from another thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenonTheStoic View Post
Darius - Reasonably hot. We have a rework that sort of got 90% of the way there. We want to position Darius as a teamfight time bomb (get to max stacks bleed and dunk fools). One of our brilliant interns worked on this last year and RiotScruffy finished it up. It's currently mothballed as we wait for art resources (there are other reworks that are much higher on the list in terms of art). Scruffy himself can probably talk more about this. Personally I enjoyed jungling the new Darius a LOT in our internal playtests.
Buildings stacks up and dunk doesnt sound like pure tank nor like an assassin.
Nor can I imagine every melee character in the game ending as full tank or assassin. Like, Aatrox, Diana, Fiora, Gankplank, Gragas, Hecarim, Irelia, Mordekaiser, Rumble and Skarner, roughly overlooking the roster. (depending on what you mean with meaningful interaction at range, +-)

So, just wanted to say that statement makes raise an eyebrow.


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Enigma Requiem

Senior Member

01-20-2014

I think there's one certain conclusion we can ALL agree on.

Warwicks E needs to move to his passive. Its a fantastic mechanic that is really core to the general Warwick Experiance, but it just HAS to be on his passive. Its too fun to not have access too and too low interaction to be a skill.

One thing I personally agree with on many of these is that his E is a natural pivot point. I really liked the suggestion MrHaveANiceDay maded with making it also light up half-health big creeps, encouraging counter-jungling and giving Warwick a role in objective controll, something I think is already a feature of his core kit, thus helping focus down his identity.

I also agree with MHAND, and I believe this is a common theme among suggestions here, that Blood Scent should interact with Warwicks other abilities. Its a really neat ability that has a lot of potential, and I feel it should be considered the main pivot of his kit. I think the majority of us agree here, though I've seen some very well thought through counter-arguments, mainly pertaining to the danger of the notifier on it- which seems like something that'd be difficult if not impossible to remove. Being seen without any way to stop or know about it is not interaction, which is a problem. Surely there is something we can work out on this?


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Firefang Warwick

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Senior Member

01-20-2014

Thematically a tanky disruptive Warwick that deals no damage doesn't fit. Lore wise it sorta does since he is a bounty hunter/mercenary that doesn't necessarily need to kill things to do his job.

Riot has always had a huge problem with stuff building tanky while also doing a lot of damage. So going by this Warwick will either be an Assassin or a Tank with his rework not both. We still have the bruiser rehaul coming up so we can assume a lot of stuff is going to change in a similar way.