Tank Shen - Build up or build out?

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Jebbou

Senior Member

02-23-2011

I recently started playing Shen, and read many guides and discussions about him. One thing I noticed with these guides is that they quickly focus on Advanced Tier items in their build order. For instance, they would start building a Sunfire Cape, then a Force of nature (or whatever would counter your lane opponents). When doing the math, I seem to realize that for about the same price as these items, I could get two Giant Belts, two Negatron Cloak, two Chain Vests and thus have a more balanced defense (+ 860HP, +90Armor, +96MR) and THEN start building up my items from the core items I already got. Some people rush Aegis, whereas I could get a Ruby Christal, a Chain Mail and a Negatron Cloak for the same price and again, have a somewhat more robust build. Obviously I would miss some of the Advanced Item perks, but I have the feeling that getting more armor and magic resist for the same price somewhat outshine these perks (that is, as a tank). Obviously I should require some boots in there, but would it make sense to fill the five other gear slots with quality base items before upgrading them? Or should I build up and focus on getting the complete Advanced Tier item before moving on to the next item? At first glance, I would rather go ahead with the first scenario, loading most of my equipment slots with Belts, Negatrons and Chain Mail, and then upgrade these items once equipment spaces are loaded.. As I free some space by upgrading, I would quickly fill in the empty spaces with more Negatron Cloaks and Chain Vests.

Iím going to try this soon, but I wondered if anybodyís tried this before. Any comments welcome.


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ZXPrototype

Senior Member

02-23-2011

1)Sunfire's cape's unique passive gives shen the ability to farm, before he didn't have farming abilities at all. Getting Aegis earlier means your team is benefited, giving higher likelyhood to win teamfights.

2, sometimes you don't really need "balanced" defensive stats. This happened to me one game before. If the enemy team has 1 AP caster, and that AP caster is all the way in the top lane, and your all the way in the bot lane, buying a negatron cloak would be waste of money because you won't be going full out teamfights right away.

You want advanced tier items for the invaluable effects each cost, because those effects are whats gonna score kills, netting more gold, netting more items.

tl;dr building lots of stat only items is selfish, besides your other item slots will be filled with lots of HP pots and wards, after that you won't have enough gold to fill 6 item slots.


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PineapplePine

Senior Member

02-23-2011

I would almost always load up with Mercury's Treads first or second (if you took Doran's Shield) then Giant's Belt then Negatron Cloak and/or Chain Vest

Only one of each or just one or the other. If its pure mages, you want both with priority on Cloak. You still want Chain Vest for diving or whatever reasons. If its pure physical, you want Chain Vest only. If its both, which is what most teams are, you want to prioritize on the fed carry or your laning opponent.

Next part is upgrading, upgrading what depends on you.

Upgradables:
Warmog
Sunfire
Omen
Frozen Heart (Don't know why you want this)
Glacial Shroud (Don't know why you want this)
QS Sash
Abyssal
FoN
Banshee's
Frozen Mallet (Don't know why you want this)
Rylai's (Don't know why you want this)
Guardien Angel
+ Anything I missed


Edit: Problem with filling your whole item slot with just random parts is that if you want to upgrade it, it'll cost A LOT more than if you have pieces of the same item (e.g. Inventory: Mercs, Giant's Belt, Cloak, Cloak, Vest, Vest - Any upgrade other than Sunfire cost over 1000).


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ComradeHX

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Senior Member

02-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by PineapplePine View Post
Upgradables:
Warmog
Sunfire
Omen
Frozen Heart (Don't know why you want this)
Glacial Shroud (Don't know why you want this)
QS Sash
Abyssal
FoN
Banshee's
Frozen Mallet (Don't know why you want this)
Rylai's (Don't know why you want this)
Guardien Angel
+ Anything I missed
Frozen Heart and Rylais are not bad at all(after the core items, of course).

Rylais give AP, which scales with 3 of shen's abilities; plus more utility as shen can now hold someone in place longer than two seconds.

Frozen Heart's mana is not useful, but its constant aspd debuff aura is great(basically a always-active raduins whether the enemy hits you or not) and 20% cdr makes shen even more effective.


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Time Sink

Junior Member

02-23-2011

I have been playing Shen for a couple weeks strait now and have done pretty much the same build tailored to the opposing team, the only thing that is different is the order in which I buy the items.

Mind you this is lvl 20 solo queue.

D Shield
M Threads (Very rarely do I get Ninja Tab, only if the other team is pretty much all AD)
Agies (build parts in oder of the dmg you are taking while laning)
G Belt
Cloak first if AP is dominating
Vest first if AD is dominating

From here I will either upgrade to a Sunfire first and then FoN, or vice versa, depending on how the opposing team is stacking damage.

If I complete all these items I usually buy another G Belt and work towards a Frozen Mallet
If I actually get F Mallet, we are usually about to win.

The real trick to Shen is knowing when to Dash (but thats a whole other thread)


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Jebbou

Senior Member

02-23-2011

@ZXFlip: I totally understand that it does not have to be balanced. When facing mostly AP champs, I could easily switch one Chain Mail for another Negatron. If that were the case, I would end up with 150 Magic Resist, which is the double of a Force of Nature, hence my questions. In fact, my question is this: Is it better to rush to pay 2600 gold for a force of nature (76 MR + perks), or 2600 for 3 negatrons (144 MR) and one regrowth (15hp/5 sec). That, and would it be a viable strategy to invest first into many strong base items, which provide a lot more defense and resist for their worth, or rush to Advanced Tier items.

Also, the selfishness factor is much debatable. Being the main tank, focusing on survival is not selfish, because it means that I will be taunting more, getting more heat much longer, which should help my team much more than 18 armor points to my nuker or DPSer lanemate.

@Pineapple: I would not actually fill my equipments with "Random" parts, but with the most quality parts for the gear I will be upgrading first. For instance, let's assume I'm getting one giant belt, one regrowth pendant, one chain mail and two negatron cloaks as a starter. This cost me 3800 gold for a solid foundation, which really is little more expansive than a Warmog by itself. This can quickly be turned into a Sunfire cape, Warmog, or Force of nature without paying any major overprice.


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Ksielvin

Senior Member

02-23-2011

I consider the base for tanking/survivability to be Giant's Belt, Negatron Cloak and Chain Mail. Usually in that order. I deviate from this quite often on per-game basis. On Shen, I commonly buy the smaller pieces since I want fast Aegis and often Heart of Gold. Sunfire Cape isn't necessary to farm since you can get freefarm when solo pushing a side lane while your ult is up. Just make sure you're looking at your team's potential 4v5 situation very closely, and have sufficient wards to not get ganked.

I don't like paying for the Negatron Cloak upgrades too early but eventually you want to do it. FoN is okay, QSS worth considering, Abyssal surprisingly beneficial for both you and the right team. BV is great on many champs and not a complete waste but I usually can't make myself put one on Shen.


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frostymoose

Senior Member

02-23-2011

Quick question: Does anyone know if Rylai's works with KI strike? That would be interesting. (not that I would be likely to build rylais on shen very often... If at all.)


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Yagyjubei

Senior Member

02-23-2011

I always start out with ruby on shen, I dont even have quints/am lvl 18 and start with like 750 hp at lvl 1, its a huge advantage for the first few levels...and lane until I get enough to finish aegis and base boots (usually at lvl 7 or 8/1800ish gold) this allows you and your lane partner to really throw your weight around. after that I finish boots and either go FoN(ap team) or get Gbelt(ad team), or start building starks if noone else is (which happens alot in noob games). finish the build off with cape and warmogs, if i didn't get starks ill grab a randuins or a BV if theyre rly ap heavy.

in short, I rush aegis every time and it works well for me


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ComradeHX

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Senior Member

02-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yagyjubei View Post
I always start out with ruby on shen, I dont even have quints/am lvl 18 and start with like 750 hp at lvl 1, its a huge advantage for the first few levels...and lane until I get enough to finish aegis and base boots (usually at lvl 7 or 8/1800ish gold) this allows you and your lane partner to really throw your weight around. after that I finish boots and either go FoN(ap team) or get Gbelt(ad team), or start building starks if noone else is (which happens alot in noob games). finish the build off with cape and warmogs, if i didn't get starks ill grab a randuins or a BV if theyre rly ap heavy.

in short, I rush aegis every time and it works well for me
I hate to say it but Shen(ninja) is not Yagyu Jubei(samurai) and Starks should not be purchased instead of abyssal or rylais...especially in pubs(if anyone need it, he will build it due to Starks being many pub champion's recommended item in shop interface). Shen is mainly magic damage, get more AP/MR/MRdebuff(abyssal) or HP/AP/Slow(rylais) for more burst/utility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frostymoose View Post
Quick question: Does anyone know if Rylai's works with KI strike? That would be interesting. (not that I would be likely to build rylais on shen very often... If at all.)
I never noticed in the 2 games I used rylais, but why would you care since you have a very spammable/ranged/awesome Q(which substitutes for lifesteal)?


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