Better give us a compensation for this..

First Riot Post
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Dotislav Pro

Senior Member

12-16-2013

Euw had the same problems during the entire season 3, and no compensation.


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Shadowultd

Junior Member

12-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dotislav Pro View Post
Euw had the same problems during the entire season 3, and no compensation.
Its even worse now in preseason. I've bee playin nearly 2 years on EUW and I haven't seen it a bad as in the past few weeks. Someone started a petition for compensation and It has 90,000+ signitures and still no reply from Riot.


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Grey Wolf

Senior Member

12-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotSuperfoxman View Post
I am not sure why you are getting down voted either, it was a very well thought out response and indeed was a routing problem with an ISP whom we have no control over.
RiotSuperfoxman, the downvotes are because we, as players, don't care WHY we are having problems playing your game. If there is a network issue, your software should be able to detect this (you create the network logs that show this, after all) and take appropriate action, such as granting Loss Prevention at the end of the match. Riot has create a system (Ranked) where wins and losses matter. As such, it is Riots responsibility to make sure changes to MMR and LP accurately reflect ability, rather than what ISP we use, or what path the network traffic takes.


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HateJungling

Junior Member

12-16-2013

I would propose a free transfer to EUW for the time these problems persist.




Ehehehehe.


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Felverick

Senior Member

12-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus567 View Post
RiotSuperfoxman, the downvotes are because we, as players, don't care WHY we are having problems playing your game. If there is a network issue, your software should be able to detect this (you create the network logs that show this, after all) and take appropriate action, such as granting Loss Prevention at the end of the match. Riot has create a system (Ranked) where wins and losses matter. As such, it is Riots responsibility to make sure changes to MMR and LP accurately reflect ability, rather than what ISP we use, or what path the network traffic takes.
Loss forgiven is an all or nothing system and is activated when there are server issues.

If your home internet starts acting wonky and riot detects that you disconnected or are experiencing packet loss through your connection well that doesn't mean they can just cancel out the entire game for others.


There are 10 people in every game. You having a bad internet connection (or your provider outsourcing to a bad provider) should not make the game meaningless for everyone else in it.

If Riot added any system like that then I could just cancel out every single one of my losses in ranked by imitating network issues or hell, just unplugging my network cable and boom! Loss forgiven.


I totally get why people can be frustrated but if you think Riot can monitor your connection like that and accurately hand out a loss forgiven in these situations then you are delusional.



Think of network traffic much like the postal system. Letters go through many sorting stations and travel many routes before they reach their destination. If your mailman is a stoner who doesn't deliver half your messages then that's something you need to take up with your local post office and is not the fault of the person sending you a letter (outside of letting them know a problem exists so they can take any steps they can)


Riot constantly makes changes to help combat problems like this but if players do not provide logs to help them figure out where information is being lost then it's hard for them to do much of anything.

They of course have systems in place to detect some issues server side but more detailed information needs to be provided by players - Aka the network tool they provided + the massive thread of troubleshooting help


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Zachrin

Member

12-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felverick View Post
Loss forgiven is an all or nothing system and is activated when there are server issues.

If your home internet starts acting wonky and riot detects that you disconnected or are experiencing packet loss through your connection well that doesn't mean they can just cancel out the entire game for others.


There are 10 people in every game. You having a bad internet connection (or your provider outsourcing to a bad provider) should not make the game meaningless for everyone else in it.

If Riot added any system like that then I could just cancel out every single one of my losses in ranked by imitating network issues or hell, just unplugging my network cable and boom! Loss forgiven.


I totally get why people can be frustrated but if you think Riot can monitor your connection like that and accurately hand out a loss forgiven in these situations then you are delusional.



Think of network traffic much like the postal system. Letters go through many sorting stations and travel many routes before they reach their destination. If your mailman is a stoner who doesn't deliver half your messages then that's something you need to take up with your local post office and is not the fault of the person sending you a letter (outside of letting them know a problem exists so they can take any steps they can)


Riot constantly makes changes to help combat problems like this but if players do not provide logs to help them figure out where information is being lost then it's hard for them to do much of anything.

They of course have systems in place to detect some issues server side but more detailed information needs to be provided by players - Aka the network tool they provided + the massive thread of troubleshooting help
I was going to type something similar, but a lot shorter and with more snark. Much more detailed and nicer than I would have said it.

+1


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Grey Wolf

Senior Member

12-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felverick View Post
I totally get why people can be frustrated but if you think Riot can monitor your connection like that and accurately hand out a loss forgiven in these situations then you are delusional.



Think of network traffic much like the postal system. Letters go through many sorting stations and travel many routes before they reach their destination. If your mailman is a stoner who doesn't deliver half your messages then that's something you need to take up with your local post office and is not the fault of the person sending you a letter (outside of letting them know a problem exists so they can take any steps they can)
Hate to burst your bubble, but I am not delusional. My company has a software package that runs on a client, connects to application servers using HTTP which then talks to the enterprise resources. Sounds similar to the LoL client, right? We have to monitor the network communication; our customers demanded it.

Yes, someone could pull the plug on their PC or shut down their router. However, guess what? You can tell they did that based on tracing the network traffic. You can tell where it is breaking.


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Kadathan

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felverick View Post
Loss forgiven is an all or nothing system and is activated when there are server issues.

If your home internet starts acting wonky and riot detects that you disconnected or are experiencing packet loss through your connection well that doesn't mean they can just cancel out the entire game for others.


There are 10 people in every game. You having a bad internet connection (or your provider outsourcing to a bad provider) should not make the game meaningless for everyone else in it.

If Riot added any system like that then I could just cancel out every single one of my losses in ranked by imitating network issues or hell, just unplugging my network cable and boom! Loss forgiven.


I totally get why people can be frustrated but if you think Riot can monitor your connection like that and accurately hand out a loss forgiven in these situations then you are delusional.



Think of network traffic much like the postal system. Letters go through many sorting stations and travel many routes before they reach their destination. If your mailman is a stoner who doesn't deliver half your messages then that's something you need to take up with your local post office and is not the fault of the person sending you a letter (outside of letting them know a problem exists so they can take any steps they can)


Riot constantly makes changes to help combat problems like this but if players do not provide logs to help them figure out where information is being lost then it's hard for them to do much of anything.

They of course have systems in place to detect some issues server side but more detailed information needs to be provided by players - Aka the network tool they provided + the massive thread of troubleshooting help

I love the post office analogy.
Networking issues can be very confusing to people who haven't worked intimately with networks, most of it is pretty much a foreign language that even many computer literate people do not understand.

That being said, if you don't understand something, you need to educate yourself, or be less demanding. Insisting that Riot needs to fix your internet connection issues when Riot is not the root cause of them is the same as telling Riot that their game doesn't work because your gpu crashed, so they need to either rewrite the graphics so it works again or get you a new gpu. Some requests are unrealistic and ignorant, i.e. the guy a page or two ago who thinks that his fiber optic connection trumps all other possible network traffic.

It's these awful customer service policies that have lulled people into thinking they can demand anything from anyone.
"Just fix the problem, Riot. We pay you money so you need to fix it. I don't care if it is other companies making decisions and having problems completely unrelated to either your game or my home computer, things that you have no way to control outside of creating your own dedicated backbone to support your FTP game, JUST FIX IT!". There is no excuse for this level of ignorance, even a basic level of knowledge should be enough for these individuals to realize the scope of the problem and the limitations of the solutions.

And edit to the guy above me: Nobody is saying that it isn't possible, more that it is abusable. Simulating packet loss is not difficult. Hell, you can configure pretty much everything about your outgoing packets as well as how you recieve your incoming packets, so after Riot has written their system for dealing with your traffic issues, are you also going to expect them to hire on the staff necessary to individually monitor all games where latency has been introduced? Investigate them on a case by case basis to see if there was anything fishy going on at the client source, or at any of the traffic nodes that were the problem?

You may be able to do this for the client base of a different company, with a different product that needs to operate under different constraints. But knowing what you are least claim to know, you should also know that this is downright unrealistic for a multiplayer game with tens of millions of players. I bet your clients don't have incentive to artificially introduce problems in order to trigger loss prevention systems. I bet they don't have any benefeit at all for trying to dupe your system.

Try changing your policy so that you give a discount on the services you offer if there are any traffic issues. Then see how smoothly things run.


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Felverick

Senior Member

12-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus567 View Post
Hate to burst your bubble, but I am not delusional. My company has a software package that runs on a client, connects to application servers using HTTP which then talks to the enterprise resources. Sounds similar to the LoL client, right? We have to monitor the network communication; our customers demanded it.

Yes, someone could pull the plug on their PC or shut down their router. However, guess what? You can tell they did that based on tracing the network traffic. You can tell where it is breaking.
I'm not denying they could do more monitoring but there's a huge difference between willing participants in monitoring and those actively trying to confuse your results to create false positives.


EG: Riot runs a traceroute from inside the client software every time a game starts to try to detect issues before a game starts.

That would be fine if it is done as you join a queue to maybe give a little popup saying that "hey you seem to be getting packet loss to this server! Would you mind if we submit a log so that we can try to help resolve issues with 3rd party service providers?"


That would be a pretty solid change and I'd support it... but it's only going to help them streamline the process.


It's an entirely different beast to actively monitor MILLIONS of players using many, many different providers, instantly determine that there is an issue, where it is coming from and assign a loss forgiven.

Keep in mind that MMR is a zero gain system. When you gain MMR from winning a game, the enemy team has to lose the exact same amount of points. THese issues on a per player basis and not per game or per team basis. One player lagging out or disconnecting is no different (from a matchmaking and balance standpoint) than someone trolling or disconnecting on purpose.


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Vortex IV

Senior Member

12-16-2013

All they did whenever verizon users couldn't play the game for the last 5 days of the season was sit back and blame verizon when all the packet loss happened well outside verizon's network. Ironically riot disabled the server that was causing the bad traffic 5 days later and things got better, but it cost god knows how many people chances at achieving their final season ranks. I asked RiotTriggs on irc if there was going to be compensation and he acted like I was proposing some kind of criminal act.

You're dealing with a different Riot nowadays boys, they know they have enough people hooked in NA where they don't have to offer incentives or compensation for their mistakes. Meanwhile they hand out all kinds of free stuff to new servers.