Calling all Junglers, lets discuss the changes

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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

11-24-2013

Please Bump
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Edit: While Riot has yet to answer, i do believe they are listening, the stuff on PBE proves they are nudging in the right direction.
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Since Riot hasent yet started a decent thread regarding the jungle changes, i would like if we could start a discussion here. Please feel free to talk about your perspective on the new jungle, what Riot got right, and what they got wrong, what you would like to keep, or change.
Please keep in mind this is all MY OPINION, feel free to disagree in a constructive manner.

(Please read my fourth point, as its the one i would like opinions about)

Now ive been maining Jungle since i started playing in season 1, and thus far, this season is shaping up to be the worst for junglers with the current set up. Now Riot has had a habit of making Pre-Seasons for junglers be rather, er, atrocious, and then fixing it up, so i havent lost hope in them, neither should you

Now, Targon and Relic shields aside (pretend this item dosent exist for the sake of discussing the Jungle), and assuming it will be properly nerfed/balanced out; what bothers you about the Current Jungle?

Dislikes TLDR: 1. Jungle is too ferocious, but easy to steal 2. Items feel bad, rewards havent changed, 3. Invading, is now useless, Junglers can catch up WAYYYYY too fast 4. THE WARD TRINKETS, Early game is slow and boring now.


1. Jungle is too Ferocious: Camps just deal too much damage.

I main Sejuani. Now ill get back to that in a sec. I think everyone has already felt this by now. The new jungle feels, in terms of hostility/damage level, close to season 1. That means that only some of the most sustained, tanky and old junglers, like Udyr, Nocturne, Lee Sin, Warwick, Xin Zhao, (Among others) can clear it without being beaten to a bloody pulp or having to recall before they can even finish a full clear.

Which leads me to tanks, like my main, sejuani; Tanks are in Hell right now. The jungle is butchering them, the new defense masteries dont help at all. Some who have huge shields like Natilus can do reasonably survive, but others just cant or struggle to much. Tanks need help here, preferably buffs to there early game, so that they can pick up some traction. Cuz right now they feel uselss early on.

Another thing about this point is that camps are too easy to Steal by the laners. If i had to make changes here, i would increase Jungle camps HP, lower there damage (or buff those champs who struggle), or make some type of dedicated Mastery points in (Preferably the defense tree) that gives an accuse advantage for surviving in da jungle.

2. Items Feel Bad, early Rewards havent Changed: Where is that Gold you promised us?
Riot promised us more gold. They didnt promise us enough.
The new jungle, has increased hostility/danger, but not more gold early on? Wtf? this was one of the big hits for me that rather to say it nicely, pissed me off. In fact, jungle gives LESS gold early on. Am i the only one who read the patch notes?
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Yah, those wolves hurt like hell. Overall, what i read from this is: Jungle has More Hp, deals way more damage, gives WAY LESS Gold and XP, and that your totally screwed. Also, the Wight at Lv 1 Is ridicolously OP. HP pots heal 150 Hp per pot, the Wight deals 75 Damage PER ATTACk, 2-3 attack = 1 Pot, depending on who your jungling you may waste up to 3-4 pots on just this one camp, its ludicrous.

Wish there was a dedicated Jungle Mastery Tree that had points such as increase gold for Jungling or carrying smite and such.

Which leads me to the Jungle Items. Ill talk individually about what bothers me about each, but overall, my opinion is they have been really nerfed.
EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NA Darklarik View Post
OMFG That PBE EDit, some Awsome CHANGES To the main Items: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2013/11...be-update.html


Wriggles is still **** though >.> even at a slightly reduced price. The new Spirit STone is THE **** NOW! Really like it! Wish Machete had that Healing passive in a reduced form to help out the really strugling junglers.
Attachment 839013
Still a good start.
Spirit of the Lizard elder: Now, overall, the nerfs to the damage arent that bad to fret over (5 ad only), the subsequent buffs to the True damage make up. What dosent is the new Gold passive. Its inconstant and unrewarding. 40 extra gold for a kill or assist? Seriously? Thats IT? I make that extra gold from killing a camp, and there isnt nearly as much RISK as ganking. Think about ganking for a sec, your leaving you jungle, possible wasting a TON of time due to the new warding system (ill get there later), DYING to a counter gank, or just possibly burning a flash and really not getting a kill or anything out of it. With how difficult early game ganking has become, this passive fells extremely Unreliable unless your steam rolling in kills or assists (very unlikely), and the 10 gold per camp also feels very underwhelming.

Spirit of Spec Wraith: I like the changes that make this item less favorable to laners (Vlad), and its stats are preety cool for the price, but im absolutely dumbfounded by its 2 new passives. Now, for the same reason as above, this new "Bounty Hunter" Passive, is just bad/unrewarding at all. But whats worse is this new sustain passive; simply put, this would be a usefull passive for the early game clears or if you get your jungle stolen, by the time you have this item built, this passive is effectively useless, this feels more like it should have been a Mastery point somewhere deep in one of the trees rather than something on an Item.

Wriggles Lantern: Somehow, this item always feels like the black sheep. What bothers me about this item isnt (and by isnt im being Sarcastic) its atrocious combat stats or its price, or the fact that its solely usefull in the jungle, or the fact that its labeled as the "Farming" item, but by the time you built it youve effectively wasted 1800 potential gold (Like, what is the point of getting an item that supposedly will increase your farm, when it cost like 1800 gold and is underwhelming outside of fighting Mosnters?). My problem with this item is its cost and the utility it brings. Sure, a ward is good, as is clearing the jungle, but its just really uselss in combat/fights, not only that but it only favors certain junglers who make use of Att speed (Yi, Nocturne, Xin zhao, Olaf ecs), i feel like an idiot building this into someone like Nasus, even though what i want with him is nothing but farm. What i would like to see on this item is either

A. a percentage sellback value passive, that either builds up by time, amount of Jungle monster's slain, or kills/assists/objectives secured. That allows you to sell the item back once you feel its served its purpose at FULL price so that you can properly invest it in actual cost EFFICIENT items, since as far as combat efficient items go, this one ranks among the worst. Ex: Clearing a camp give 2 stacks of sellback, increasing the sellback value by a % amount based on how many stacks you have. At 100 stack (You cleared 50 Camps), wriggles can be sold back at full price.

B. A mid-late game upgrade that Trades the "Maim" passive and maybe the Gold income passive for RAW, awsome, combat stats that fighters or bruisers would drool over.

Spirit of the Ancient Golem: This is about the only Jungle item id actually still build among the three. Yah, its been heavily nerfed HP wise, to be fair though, it was somewhat TOO cost efficient (Tenas, Cdr, 500 hp? all for only 2000g? Thats the kinda item you droll over). What makes this item now so attractive is its the only item that offers A. Combat usefull stats and B. Consitent and proper Gold income. The new banking passive on this thing is awsome, and its quite frankly the one i feel Riot got right. Another thing i like about this item is that because you "Bank" the stacks, you can go out and gank, and by the time you come back your stacks will be around 40-50 so you dont really lose out on gold. I do still think, that like all the Jungle items, once the game reaches its Late game phase and full builds are starting to roll, i get the nudge to sell it (Thought not nearly as much as i would the other 3) for something bigger.
EDIT: Awsome idea - New SPirit line item:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NA Darklarik View Post
So taking into what Molten Brain said, i think that a spirit item related to Wolves would work as follows

Spirit Stone (700)+ Dagger (400)+ Brawler Glove (400) + 500 Gold = 2000 gold

Spirit of Vicious Wolf
20% Attack Speed
10% Critical Strike Chance
Butcher
Entrap
Conservation

Unique Passive: Autoattacks give a stack which gives 5% Attack speed and 5% Critical Strike Change. Stacks up to 3 times.

And alternative to Critical Strike chance can be Mov Speed, which also increases with AA and stacks to with the Unique passive, like a make-shift Phage.
3. Invading is now Useless, way to easy to catch up: I second main Udyr, and i play quite a bit of Volibear and Rengar as well. As such, in season 3, there was nothing more satifying that going in, robbing the enemy jungler of there buffs, beating the **** out of them, and overall just setting them back a mile like the way certain Top laners stomps his lane opponent once he gets a good/decent lead.

Not only is my favorite playstile dead, its incredibly dangerous due to the new trinket system. But first, why is it dead? Well, simply because of how the new jungle works. For starters, the new Xp changes mean that even if you kill them, they can still stay on par with your levels and if your ahead you will gain very little in comparison from killing camp. Not only that, but because of the Wight, getting a buff camp stolen means nothing anymore, and the new smite cooldown makes making steals and invades centered around when the enemy might have his smite up/down is dead. Invading now is not only not going to set your opponent behind, its putting yourself at extreme risk of dying. I really dont understand why riot is so against snowballing, it makes making plays not really feel worthwhile because they no longer cause the impact that they did, especially during the early game.

Not to mention that the New Smite, ridiculously Low damage makes objective securing a tad difficult vs AP carries now. That is something that i feel should be addressed.
EDIT: Cool idea right here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azhliay View Post
Snip --
I do like the idea of The Jungle items giving more Gold and Exp based on a champion carrying Smite or not. I do disagree on some of those machete changes, since it would make you preety much have to start with the item, and i do like Starting Boots on many aggresive ganking Junglers, with Utility masteries, you get like 421 mov speed at lv 1 OP.

4. The Warding Totem Trinket, early game feels slow and boring: I feel that the Warding Totem is the root of all Evil here.
Ganking is pretty difficult now (makes you wonder what the point of the "Bounty Hunter" passive is for), mostly due to a free damn ward. Most Laners that arent in bronze know to expect a gank around 3-4 minutes, when the Jungler has his buffs and lv 3. Not only that, but a free ward also screws up Invasions as well, which is another reason why control junglers and invading junglers are kinda screwed right now.

Ill cut right to the point here; I believe that for the good of the game, the Warding totem needs to be removed, and a dedicated ward slot needs to be made (Which would also fix that problem with lategame warding, where no one has space in there inventory), and i propose a NEW TRINKET, that functions as follows: Similar to the Scanner Trinket, which i think should be renamed “Revealer” Trinket, the new Trinket i propose would do have a large cast radius, similar to the Blue CV trinket, BUT, the “Scanning” area would be much larger, similar to the size of the Dragon pit in terms of Radius. The scan would last for 3 seconds, the Scan will not Reveal the are, but rather, it would show the general LOCATION OF WARDS (without revealing them), and be on a much lower cooldown, only the Caster and his allies would be aware of the scan, it would be invisible to the enemy. This way, instead of wasting the 150 second Cooldown of the current swepper trinket, The jungler who would run this new trinket, could coordinate with a teamate who has the Sweeper Trinket to identify the location of wards, instead of randomy scanning an area and praying that there is a ward there so you did not waste your 150 second CD. This Trinket would be perfect for Jungler as he its range and subtlety would allow him to scan areas to see if they are warded, without revealing them, allowing him to alternate his paths of approach without wasting time or putting himself in severe danger.

TLDR: Remove Ward Trinket, Add Dedicated Ward Slot, NEW TRINKET that scans for location of wards in a large area and radius without revealing the area or the ward iteself. Purpose is too coordinate with the Sweeper Trinket to eliminate wards.
Here are some Theorical Screens of how it would look like:
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Scan a general area you belive is warded...
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Scan Confirms there are wards in the general area
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After you know the location of a ward, you can ping an ally with the Scanner Trinket to help you remove it.
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Please tell me what you think, especially in regards to the 4th Point and the Item changes. Bump, let the discussion flow, and Lets see if we can get a Riot Responce
@Morello @Xelnath @Meddler @Phreak

TLDR:
1. Jungle is too ferocious, but easy to steal
2. Items feel bad, rewards havent changed,
3. Invading, is now useless, Junglers can catch up WAYYYYY too fast
4. THE WARD TRINKETS, Early game is slow and boring now.

4th point elaborated: TLDR: Remove Ward Trinket, Add Dedicated Ward Slot, NEW TRINKET that scans for location of wards in a large area and radius without revealing the area or the ward iteself. Purpose is too coordinate with the Sweeper Trinket to eliminate wards.


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Ventose

Member

11-24-2013

upvoted


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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

11-24-2013

Bump


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Dementation

Senior Member

11-24-2013

Riot overall nerfed the fuck out of jungle. What the hell even got buffed about it? The new Wriggle's cost way too much for it to even be efficient.

For the first time in years, I died to the jungle creeps. I was about half hp as Nasus for fucks sake and I ended up dying to double golems because they literally took off one bar of my HP every time they attacked me.

In Season 3, I was already finding myself bored of the jungle, but now that it's so much harder, I'm probably going to find a new role to main.


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Naphiro

Senior Member

11-24-2013

Obviously Riot is gonna need to be ganked.


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Folsdaman

Senior Member

11-24-2013

I am the only one who gets **** on by the new camp and has to chug 3 pots just to recover from it???


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sl0tw0n

Senior Member

11-24-2013

Sticking on that gigantic price tag on stuff that's supposed to boost your income is just stupid, doesn't help that they made the monsters so strong you can't properly jungle with non-jungle items anymore.


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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

11-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dementation View Post
Riot overall nerfed the fuck out of jungle. What the hell even got buffed about it? The new Wriggle's cost way too much for it to even be efficient.

For the first time in years, I died to the jungle creeps. I was about half hp as Nasus for fucks sake and I ended up dying to double golems because they literally took off one bar of my HP every time they attacked me.

In Season 3, I was already finding myself bored of the jungle, but now that it's so much harder, I'm probably going to find a new role to main.
I know how you feel man, but try to propose what changes you would like to see, rather than quitting jungling all toghther, if you read my post i talk about a great deal of potential changes, including one for invading Junglers like Nunu.

Dont give up hope man!


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Vudz

Senior Member

11-24-2013

Its really funny now. From time to time I would hear the xxx been slain by minion and smile since we go 2-1-2.


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vennomite

Senior Member

11-24-2013

I'm fine with the jungle being ferocious. Over the last two season they made the jungle into a cakewalk. It could even be more brutal in my opinion since they want everyone to buy machete anyway. Then all you have to do is balance machete. The scaling exp is fine, it's nice to be able to get back into the game and i don't really feel like this is the problem is how non-punished you are for losing camps. We have 4 camps, why increase the spawn time?