Support Scaling and duo lanes discussion

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sophitia

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Then a good as of an excuse to deal with that as any, I think.

With preseason, we focus a lot on making really disruptive changes - the conversation here is that we've just irrevocably ruined the support class, which I don't think out history has shown at all. It's important to us that all six classes of characters have valid places in League, and our preseason traction has historically been good (there's no League of X in the real season, right?)
I'm ok with disruptive changes. I like the ward changes, and I like the map changes, heck I love a lot of the changes coming out. The support changes, I do not love. And this is coming from someone who plays support all the time. Some people might feel differently, but I feel very weak against AP mages bot playing traditional supports right now.

The main question people seem to have for you is why would you want an extra 10% slow when someone like annie can also CC and just erase your adc?

This is a core issue with mages going bot - you can't fix that problem without looking at mages or buffing support damage.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
12 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMG halp meh plz View Post
Tanks are the reverse of DOING damage; they absorb it.

This isn't the first time you stated HP+CDR, so I guess the desired result is to make supports into a semi-tank? But then there are champs that benefit much more from that, like Leona.
Tanks absorb damage as a function of being able to disrupt more. They need time to add to a full fight and have low, slow damage patterns. Supports could do that if their other scaling is unrealistic.

I tend to think support players want to help and support, but never have been those characters past level 9.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mynt

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Here's my suggestion to making targeted ally spells (heals, shields, auras, buffs) a dynamic part of the laning experience: Lower their range.

Not necessarily touch-cast, but like 300 or so. Low enough that if a support wants to go in and lend their power to an ally, they have to risk their own neck to do it. Under this circumstance healing at least has a visceral impact on the lane--either the support extends, or their ally temporarily leaves the vanguard. Either way, it creates an opening for the opponent to do anything.

A 700 range heal spell might as well be a 3000 range heal spell.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hidden Dragon

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xiDIzE View Post
Damage is not king. The reason Annie, Zyra, and Fiddlesticks are popular supports is that they have a lot of utility/CC in addition to their damage. If those champions really do become overbearing/start boxing other supports out in terms of overall popularity, then they'll be nerfed or the support-themed champions will have damage buffs to compensate.

Right now, those champions are only popular/powerful in the support role when discussing the pro scene, however. People who play Annie, Zyra, and Fiddlesticks as supports in solo Q tend to get destroyed, in my experience.
That's funny because in gold ranked, I've seen primarily Annie, Fiddles, Leona, Thresh and the occasional Fiddles. Zyra is seen less to a degree, but Annie is without a doubt the most contested support.

It doesn't take a pro to realize that Annie is damn well the best support in the game. She has a 1.75s stun with a practically miniscule cooldown in comparison to other support ultimates. She can put out a hell of a lot of burst and her flash + Tibbers initiation is really without compare.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KiteAzure

Senior Member

11-21-2013

just leave it up to testing morello, no one in this community likes change, or at least very few do. If it works out for supports in preseason, hey its cool but if it doesn't I'm sure you guys will be there to make it better.


But for now, this community will be a brick wall. let them see for themselves for how supports have changed


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
13 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia View Post
I'm ok with disruptive changes. I like the ward changes, and I like the map changes, heck I love a lot of the changes coming out. The support changes, I do not love. And this is coming from someone who plays support all the time. Some people might feel differently, but I feel very weak against AP mages bot playing traditional supports right now.

The main question people seem to have for you is why would you want an extra 10% slow when someone like annie can also CC and just erase your adc?

This is a core issue with mages going bot - you can't fix that problem without looking at mages or buffing support damage.
It might be true that they need better sustained lane damage, less late-game. Definitely a possibility. And I think we do have to look at the strong damage + utility mages with this.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

LoveSparkle

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Real honest question that would be a much simpler fix: "Why don't we remove the concept of "Support" and have them as mages/APC2?"


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

OneDragonArmy

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatrix View Post
So it seems to me like they're basically making supports into ranged tanks. With the added gold, it feels like it's a better idea to just buy CDR and tanky stats as opposed to actually taking advantage of any of the scaling ratios. Personally it feels like they're a bit too low to even bother with, and having your abilities up 40% faster is a better alternative, as is being able to potentially eat skillshots and overall be in fights longer. To me, it doesn't feel like much of a choice. Do I want zephyr to deal a meager amount of damage with like 5% more snare, or do I want Zephyr to be up 20-40% sooner? It's a pretty big no-brainer if you're talking utility.

Tanky Soraka, for example, can spam Starcall for far longer and LIVE more than old no-item support Soraka could. Will it deal damage? Not much, but that -MR really starts to add up.

Pretty sure SR supports will just start doing what supports in Dominion that get gold do: stack CDR and tanky stats with a tad of AP and just be a major annoyance.
That's kind of the point, Jatt even said, the use of supports with gold in Dominion points to what they can do in SR once given gold. A tankier support with cdr gets to support longer. An AP-oriented support supports harder in bursts.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mirage Night

Senior Member

11-21-2013

So why did you have tune weakened Supports at all? If anything, if they needed to be tuned, I'd rather it be down, then feeling miserable, and have to wait for the tune up.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Nasuuna

Senior Member

11-21-2013

I do have a few questions

1. is annies stun really 1.75 seconds?

feels like a lot longer when i get him by it

2. in addition to what you have showed already, will their be additional support oriented items coming out?

3. what is you opinion on playing a solo lane support for no reason other than stack ap and make life hell for trying to hurt the carry