Support Scaling and duo lanes discussion

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Edzter

Senior Member

11-21-2013

maybe its time to stop releasing new champions overall


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
What do tanks do? CDR + HP will still work - we're trying to provide an alternative.

Nerfs and buffs are irrelevant if they achieve the desired results. If these results don't work, then we will buff or nerf until it's there.

Tanks are the reverse of DOING damage; they absorb it.

This isn't the first time you stated HP+CDR, so I guess the desired result is to make supports into a semi-tank? But then there are champs that benefit much more from that, like Leona.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

0xiDIzE

Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden Dragon View Post
Morello, you still have yet to answer my question:

Why would I ever pick Sona / Nami / Soraka / Lulu over someone like Annie or Fiddlesticks or Zyra?


You are talking about over-/under-tuning. How about tuning the two most powerful supports at the moment, who aren't even supports.

If you ask me who I will support with come the patch, I'll tell you right away: Annie, then Fiddles, then Zyra, then maybe Elise. I wouldn't even touch the "traditional" supports because there is nothing they contribute over the others than compares to raw damage. You keep overestimating the influence of a few % movement speed or a small 5 armor/mr aura. If I can choose a 60% over a 500 AP Tibbers, I'll take the Tibbers every single time.

DAMAGE IS KING. There is no amount of utility or crowd control that can match simply 100-0'ing someone.
Damage is not king. The reason Annie, Zyra, and Fiddlesticks are popular supports is that they have a lot of utility/CC in addition to their damage. If those champions really do become overbearing/start boxing other supports out in terms of overall popularity, then they'll be nerfed or the support-themed champions will have damage buffs to compensate.

Right now, those champions are only popular/powerful in the support role when discussing the pro scene, however. People who play Annie, Zyra, and Fiddlesticks as supports in solo Q tend to get destroyed, in my experience.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
11 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia View Post
The issue isn't as simple as tuning. Especially because no one knows what you mean by this kind of tuning? Are you willing to compromise on damage? Or are you going to keep trying to buff their utility aspects?

I'm also super skeptical because we've seen how slow the balance team can be fixing issues. Not to mention some things won't even surface as too strong until half way (or further) into the season.

You also have the issue that AP supports have already started over taking traditional supports in the current meta. What you currently have set in the patch is only going to serve to exasperate the issue of mages taking over bot lane.
Then a good as of an excuse to deal with that as any, I think.

With preseason, we focus a lot on making really disruptive changes - the conversation here is that we've just irrevocably ruined the support class, which I don't think out history has shown at all. It's important to us that all six classes of characters have valid places in League, and our preseason traction has historically been good (there's no League of X in the real season, right?)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

WindLord7070

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Morello can you answer me one thing are supports going to need to get as much ap as mages currently get in the mid lane to reach the amount of utility the have right now? im not so good with the numbers so i cant really tell until i play the patch


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Nasuuna

Senior Member

11-21-2013

hey morello


thank you for the love of ****ing christ for buffing namis passive with these changes.


I cannot wait to see how the changes affect my lich bane sona as well, good times, good times


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Epjest

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is an overly complex solution to the problem - why need a new stat to scale spells you want to scale? CC will not scale with a stat in League for a myriad of other reasons.
Lets say we want to scale Lulu as a support into late game. Right now we have several options, we can build AP to make her Q/E/R more shield/damage per cast, we can get up to 40% CDR to cast more often.

What if we don't need more raw shield/damage or to cast them as often? So you decide you want to increase the duration/decay of her Q slow, ultimates slow, or the movespeed boost/slow from her W.

In the current AP Model, you either accept they're flat out buffs, or you destroy the AP damage version of the character in order to make AP also give utility (Seen in every support change so far). If you had a different attribute, it's controlled through items you either get high-utility or high-damage with items without destroying either build choice.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hamady3

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Here's a few points i want to bring up:


- Support is a generally hated role because the support players get to do no damage
- Most support champions dont have any significance in teamfights. You never see people yell out " Focus on soraka to prevent her from giving armor buffs " Or " Focus On Leona so that her allies wouldnt get to proc her passive "



So why not change support champions to get them to do alot of damage, but only through supporting their allies? Nami and Janna are great examples, and they're one of the 'more fun' supports for that reason. You can replace Leona's passive with her Q ( aa Stun ) and add something like ( sunburn ) to replace her Q, where all physical damage your allies do to the champion is increased by 15% - 20%

Soraka for example can get an effect similar to banshee's veil on her E. giving an Ally mana also places a shield that reflects 50% of the next 100/200/300/400/500 ( 0.5 Ap) damage back to the dealer of the damage. That way the soraka players gets to feel a bit pleased when the enemy caitlyn with 50 hp ults his allied Heimerdinger, and uses his shield on heimer to watch caytlin suicide


There's plenty of other options too that can have other options to solve their problem. Look at thresh, he's one of the best supports because he has chain CC, but his most notable point is his lantern. it's a totally unique ability. Support champions should be like that, they should have something UNIQUE TO THEM that no other 'mage' has. You gave thresh a lantern, and people loved it. He's considered one of the most fun supports too. Make more creative support champions. Maybe a new support champion would be able to create a movable wall. As in he places a wall and can recast the ability to make it turn and slide. Or maybe even a champion that can place 'trap like' plates on the ground, and if an ally steps on it he gains a movement speed boost, and they would last for 3 minutes, similarly to how nidalee's traps work.



TL;DR

Supports should be able to do tons of damage by 'giving' it to their allies. Support kits should be more creative and unique, and more support champions should be balanced around Thresh's power level and creativity.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Beatrix

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-21-2013

So it seems to me like they're basically making supports into ranged tanks. With the added gold, it feels like it's a better idea to just buy CDR and tanky stats as opposed to actually taking advantage of any of the scaling ratios. Personally it feels like they're a bit too low to even bother with, and having your abilities up 40% faster is a better alternative, as is being able to potentially eat skillshots and overall be in fights longer. To me, it doesn't feel like much of a choice. Do I want zephyr to deal a meager amount of damage with like 5% more snare, or do I want Zephyr to be up 20-40% sooner? It's a pretty big no-brainer if you're talking utility.

Tanky Soraka, for example, can spam Starcall for far longer and LIVE more than old no-item support Soraka could. Will it deal damage? Not much, but that -MR really starts to add up.

Pretty sure SR supports will just start doing what supports in Dominion that get gold do: stack CDR and tanky stats with a tad of AP and just be a major annoyance.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

LoveSparkle

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This has not been addressed - I agree. Luckily, not all support = healer. This is an unresolved issue that needs to be dealt with.
Let's see: Nidalee, Sona, Taric, Lulu, Soraka, Nami. And Zilean can even revive a champion, arguably the ultimate heal. LOL

Actually in the 9 listed supports in the client. Only 2 don't have heals: Thresh and Janna. 3 if you exclude Nunu.

So Support kinda does equal healer as in 6 of 9 DO have a heal that can use on others.