Support Scaling and duo lanes discussion

First Riot Post
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Khristophoros

The Council

11-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Tanks differ than fighters and have lower damage - edge cases like J4 do exist here too.
Edge case where one champion is overpowered.

(Now I will catch up on the thread)


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Taint Misbehavin

Senior Member

11-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsin View Post
Riot, I think there's one thing you guys really need to get through your thick skulls: nerfing the base and then buffing its scaling is a net nerf unless the scaling buff breaks even at an absurdly early point (eg: 50 - 100 AP).

Why? Simply put, not every build in the game revolves around stacking nothing but *scaling factor*. Your scaling buff assumes that items that fit the scaling are bought, yet it completely ignores the idea that not every scaling buff you make is actually going to be used.

This is what truly pisses me off about the Support changes. If I really want to amplify my Utility, I stack CDR, MP5 and Defenses so I can throw out my utility more often (cast rate, max casts per fight, staying alive so I can keep casting). I rarely care about whether that utility is a 40% slow instead of a 30% slow, or even that it's 60 AD instead of 50. I just want to get it out there as often as humanly possible; ergo, even in a full item build a pure Support playstyle may not build any AP at all.

Go ahead and knock down the Damage ratios in exchange for Utility ones, but don't gut my bases on top of that.
this. a hundred times, this.

but i'm afraid this argument is being lost in the cacophony of all the other complaints about the preseason changes, utility mages as supports, relic shield stacking, etc.


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ZooZuu

Junior Member

11-24-2013

I don't feel as though the damage part of the support scaling is much of a problem to me, as a support main. The main thing that has hurt my gameplay is, wards! The nerfs on wards has made a huge impact on this game. I liked the idea that Supports focused more towards map control over damage or big items. We only get three green wards and now a pink ward that is visible and almost useless recently. This Nerf doesn't make the entire team actually ward. Which has hurt a lot recently in some games I have played. Also with pink wards being the way they are now makes champs like Rengar and Eve a lot stronger and harder to know where they are on the map. I don't know where Riot will be going with this patch. And as a player I want to be able to play this game and enjoy it. As of right now the ward nerfs really hurts. I know you probably don't want supports be the only one warding, but at the same time isn't that the reason a support is called support? We support our team. Yea we lack damage late, yea we can be stupid squishy. But If we can keep wards down and control vision we actually give our team a chance to actually win.

So Riot I hope you read this. I love this game. So please let us supports actually have support purposes instead of being all about our damage now.


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MidoriKatsu

Senior Member

11-24-2013

I think riot should change sightstone or include a mastery... possibly that abhorrent last utility mastery so that whomever has it can carry a few more wards. I mean, riot explicitly stated that they wanted masteries be so that if you put more points into the tree, you are committing more to the role... how in the hell is extra movement speed a commitment to the role? Change that mastery to allow more wards to be able to be placed by that person.


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travman56

Senior Member

11-24-2013

At first I was not at all satisfied with the changes to the support or jungle. Now having read through all this, I see where you are coming from Morello. However I still don't necessarily like the changes, that mainly being I have been a support main from the beginning and have always preferred the traditional support over a mage in a support setting.

I am sure that you know what you are doing and don't take to these changes lightly. For that I am willing to adjust to the changes. I get that it is pre-season, this definitely being the time to try new things, I fully support the things you are doing to the game, because I know,(as many people seem not to realize), you are trying to improve the overall game play of League, and in no way intend to take away from the joy and entertainment people find in the game.


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PodunkTheMighty

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Senior Member

11-24-2013

It looks pretty ridiculous now, saying 'we tested this as much as we possibly can!' before introducing an incredibly clearly abuseable item, supports needing -massive- amounts of AP to break even(it's a buff!), making jungle camps tougher and stronger(it's more accessable!) and champions like Gragas and Syndra just flat-out broken in order to push the patch out the door.


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

11-25-2013

I have an important question about your design-paradigms in regard to the True Mage<>True Support spectrum:

Morello, would you please share with us the S3 design-paradigms & the intended S4 design-paradigms for True Mages, Utility Mages, & True Supports?

Below is a rough idea of how I believe S4 should look:

True Mages - high base-damage, avg-high scaling/rank, avg-high ap (dmg) ratios, zero ap (util) ratios, & low-zero cc/utility

Utility Mages - high base-damage, avg scaling/rank, avg ap (dmg) ratios, zero ap (util) ratios, & low-avg cc/utility

True Supports - avg base-damage, avg scaling/rank, low ap (dmg) ratios, avg ap (util) ratios, & high cc/utility

I think, in general, that True Mages & Utility Mages currently match these paradigms quite well... I think that the current S4 direction for True Supports, however, goes something like this:

True Supports - LOW base-damage, LOW scaling/rank, AVG ap (dmg) ratios, LOW ap (util) ratios, & high cc/utility


I think a change in terms of these four would accomplish great good... a bit more front-loaded damage on the True Supports & a bit better scaling/rank, combined with a reduction in ap (dmg) ratio scaling plus an increase in ap (util) ratio scaling would set them off right... enabling them to compete against bot-lane Utility Mages a bit more effectively in the early levels, yet still allowing for their role to progress appropriately while still remaining somewhat valid damage-wise.

This change may even permit "True Supports" to mid-lane in a non-toxic fashion which would seem to please tens of thousands of players who desire such a possibility.

What do you think Morello?


BONUS: I also think a couple more "True Support" items could be useful...

Shurima's Curse: Amplifying Tome (435) + Fiendish Codex (820) + Recipe Cost (845) = +50 AP, +10% CDR, & "Active: Smaller/Lesser Vladimir Ultimate" (2100)... and stats to accompany the recipe cost.

Shurelya's Blessing: Amplifying Tome (435) + Ruby Crystal (475) + Warden's Mail (1000) + Recipe Cost (490) = +20 AP, +50 Armor, +180 HP, & "Active: Smaller/Lesser Maokai Ultimate" (2400)... and stats to accompany the recipe cost.


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Ahris

Senior Member

11-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
True, though I'm about to go to bed and want to keep up on it. Stickying it might make people WHERE MORELLO AT?!
buff ahri support pl0x


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IS1ea9babe8ac6b7cad8130

Member

11-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
For what it's worth, she's next on my priority list (non-art list - it's a pretty complex matrix).

I actually feel really bad about Soraka's history; I've been a giant weiner with pulling the trigger on this, and Soraka players, as mad as I KNOW a reowork will make them, deserve a good kit.
Dunno if this has been said before, but I think Soraka is pretty fun after the reworks. I've been experimenting with maxing Q with its higher base damage and slightly lower cost at later ranks, and a Ryze-like tanky build with Archangels, RoA, and max CDR. It lets you do a bit more in fights because when your other spells are on cooldown, you're tanky enough to stand close and spam Q.