Support Scaling and duo lanes discussion

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0xiDIzE

Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Exactly. I think this expectation from supports being unsatisfying for so long has a lot to do with this, and that the fear of the AP mage coming in and invalidating this class of character. The latter is not an OK result - there's nothing I can shout from the rooftop more.
And that's something that everyone is predicting will happen despite those who have access to the PBE telling us otherwise. I'm glad that you're opening a dialogue on this, but I don't think that you're going to get a whole lot of constructive criticism in response until people have had a week or so to play with and theorycraft on the changes themselves.


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Hidden Dragon

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Morello, you still have yet to answer my question:

Why would I ever pick Sona / Nami / Soraka / Lulu over someone like Annie or Fiddlesticks or Zyra?


You are talking about over-/under-tuning. How about tuning the two most powerful supports at the moment, who aren't even supports.

If you ask me who I will support with come the patch, I'll tell you right away: Annie, then Fiddles, then Zyra, then maybe Elise. I wouldn't even touch the "traditional" supports because there is nothing they contribute over the others that compares to raw damage. You keep overestimating the influence of a few % movement speed or a small 5 armor/mr aura. If I can choose a 60% slow over a 500 AP Tibbers, I'll take the Tibbers every single time.

DAMAGE IS KING. There is no amount of utility or crowd control that can match simply 100-0'ing someone.


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Riot Wittrock

QA Analyst

11-21-2013

I have a metric ton of opinions, concerns, excitements, and projections that I'm sitting on. Why? Because I haven't experienced the content yet. There really is only so much anyone can glean from seeing numbers ebb and flow on the PBE, up to the point where we're all giddy or panic-y the night before patch day.

So as much as I want to rattle off some choice words for the Nerf Master, now isn't the time.

Instead, I look to the core of the design philosophy that's being framed. The levelers that are being put into place to tune not just balance, but much more importantly, the very experience. And do you know what I see when I look at these things? Stuff I like.

So, folks, step back a minute. Are you opposed to supports being more impactful? I'm sure not. Do you want them to be homogenized with mages? Also seems like a poor plan.

The road may be rough, but I've yet to see Riot not deliver. They listen to feedback, they pour their hearts into tuning player experience, and that's a formula for success. Keep up the good work!


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Mynt

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

If healers become a valid style of play, will they see blanket nerfs again?

Then what? With ward coverage now being the team's responsibility, what other kinds of things are there for supports to do? Not passively healing their teammates--that's boring game play. Not providing buffs from afar. That's boring game play. Not being in charge of scouting the map while simultaneously sweeping enemy vision. That's everyone's game play.

The fundamental issue hasn't even been addressed in all these sweeping changes--how to make healing a vigorous part of the laning experience.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
9 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMG halp meh plz View Post
People WANT this, but you and Riot refuse. You guys initially promised scaling utility, and people got excited, hoping for that amazing scaling Sona VROOM VROOM aura, or amazing scaling Soraka massive armor buff or extended silence.


Instead, we get:
- NERFED bases
- NERFED damage scaling
- UNTOUCHED or NERFED utility


You explicitly stated you don't want scaling CC, you said you don't want supports doing damage. Ok, what else is there to DO in this game? You can't even be a ward-***** now.
What do tanks do? CDR + HP will still work - we're trying to provide an alternative.

Nerfs and buffs are irrelevant if they achieve the desired results. If these results don't work, then we will buff or nerf until it's there.


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Sophitia

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So we tune it if it's off. Seems like a very simple issue, no?

I guess I don't know how to set up the concept of "preseason" more?
The issue isn't as simple as tuning. Especially because no one knows what you mean by this kind of tuning? Are you willing to compromise on damage? Or are you going to keep trying to buff their utility aspects?

I'm also super skeptical because we've seen how slow the balance team can be fixing issues. Not to mention some things won't even surface as too strong until half way (or further) into the season.

You also have the issue that AP supports have already started over taking traditional supports in the current meta. What you currently have set in the patch is only going to serve to exasperate the issue of mages taking over bot lane.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
10 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mynt View Post
If healers become a valid style of play, will they see blanket nerfs again?

Then what? With ward coverage now being the team's responsibility, what other kinds of things are there for supports to do? Not passively healing their teammates--that's boring game play. Not providing buffs from afar. That's boring game play. Not being in charge of scouting the map while simultaneously sweeping enemy vision. That's everyone's game play.

The fundamental issue hasn't even been addressed in all these sweeping changes--how to make healing a vigorous part of the laning experience.
This has not been addressed - I agree. Luckily, not all support = healer. This is an unresolved issue that needs to be dealt with.


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LoveSparkle

Senior Member

11-21-2013

To make it easier for you Morello:

"Every time you nerf a utlity champion.

We're going to play an APC champion down in bot instead.

It's only a matter of time before Syndra support gets played.

High damage, good zoning, stuns, can throw minions to off set CSing, homing missile style ult.

Nerf Lulu? Fine we'l play Nami. Nerf Nami? Fine we'll play Zyra. Nerf Zyra, fine we'll play Annie and Fiddle. Do you see the issue yet?

--

You don't? I'll explain it this way.

Twisted Treeline is a 3v3 map. It has a jungle, and it has 2 lanes for 3 income streams.

Summoner's Rift is a 5v5 map. it has a jungle and 3 lanes for 4 income streams.

Just keep that in mind.

--

The problem isn't the champions. The problem is you have the wrong map and amount of players for what you are balancing around.

You already agreed supports are gold starved and should be able to participate more in the game besides being a ward bot with no damage and normally down about 3 levels. You want them to be an equal part of the team?

It's not going to happen without an income stream. It just isn't. And the nerfs to champions who play support *in the current meta* only means the champs you haven't touched yet will be played bot over those other champs you have preemptively nerfed.

So instead of assuming they are toxic because of the CC they possess, either admit CC was a critical design flaw to begin with, (as with gap closers) or nerf the DAMAGE an ADC can do since they're designed for a DUO LANE. This will kick out Quinn and Vayne from Top, and champs such as Caitlyn out of Mid as well.

--

Maybe these gold changes will allow supports to do more damage end game with their utility skills. But Zyra needing 500AP to break even to what she could be already in mid is a joke.

And I'm not dumb. The Janna nerfs will come to her passive once everyone accepts no global passives anymore. And that 5% will be seen as too much and it will drop down to 3%, maybe even lower, once that global is gone, you won't want to put it back.

And I'm aware because Annie is destroying as a support (because there are no supports left) that she'll be gutted and her mid role will suffer too. Slapping 3 full seasons and Beta in the face for Annie mid players.

And there is Nidalee who always went top or mid for years. Who pretty much supports as AP bruiser because what else left is there?

And I know Syndra will go bot, or Vi, or junglers with knock ups. Lee Sin, Aatrox, Xin, J4, we'll just keep sending champs bot that have that utility that you keep nerfing off of supports.

Eventually you're going to see Zac and Amumu supporting.

--

And every champ is going to lose that stun, that aoe, that global passive, it's all gonna be cut down, patch by patch.

Or you could be smart.

TL;DR: don't be afraid of CC and burden of knowledge and buff supports and leave the viable ones like Janna (in solo), Zyra, and Thresh alone."


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Hellioning

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Alright then, here's my wall o text.

First off, what you did well. I like the Nami changes, the ap ratio to damage fall off on her Ebb and Flow was an amazing idea, especially with how it can go positive. The Leona changes were pretty good, too.

Okay, now with the parts I disagree with. While I like the idea behind 'q more to get more w casts' on Soraka, the changes to her w and passive lead something to be desired. The reduced increased armor duration indicates you want to cast it just before the target gets a bunch of physical damage, but the increased healing at lower amounts indicates you want to wait for your ally to get low to get the most out of your cast. There are cases where you can get both (interrupting a Talon or Zed mid combo, for example) but those are edge cases at best. Then there's the e change; I get why you want to make it cost mana, but always giving up 5% of your max mana is gonna hurt her laning quite a bit. She has to choose between using that mana on heals and using it on giving her adc better harassing potential, and it's not like she's getting the blue buff.

The Janna passive change is okay, I get why you do it, but the tornado change baffles me. It's a gigantic nerf; a full charge tornado at high AP levels with still do less damage then an instacast tornado at similar ap levels pre-patch, and I don't hear many people complaining about Janna's damage. The ap-to-ad ratio on her shield is nice, but her adc is going to focused, so it's of limited use offensively.

These changes kinda screwed Taric over. You need two passive procs in order to have his shatter and dazzle cooldowns be the same as it was this patch, and the removal of most of the ap ratios in order to force him to build tanky ruins all of my fun ARAM builds. It also kinda makes the extra AP on his ultimate a waste. The shatter aura is still pretty cool, though.

Sona...Sona is my second favorite champion. Now, my favorite champion is Irelia, so you are not my favorite Rioter, Morello. But if these changes go through, you will probably fall even lower. (Yes, I'm aware that you aren't the head of live design anymore. My nerdrage cares not for facts.) The tiny ap ratios on her w and e power chords and e active affect do not make up for the massive drop in ap ratio on her ult and lowering her healing. Her entire thing is 'the damage support', what with her poke and all. I do like the ap ratio on power chord damage, but the rest of the changes were just too much, especially given she's still kinda a caster minion at low levels.

And finally we get to the Annie and Fiddlesticks changes. "What changes?" you may ask. Exactly. These are two very good support picks, but were completely unaffected by this patch. This patch also gives them the gold they need to build AP, changing them from a stun/fear bot that deals some decent damage to a second ap carry that also has ridiculous CC (That fear needs to be changes. At least with Rammus' taunt, it's melee range and you're at least DOING SOMETHING when you get hit by it.) The increased gold gain for supports, plus the lack of changes to bring them in line with traditional supports, means it's almost a certainty that bot lane is being taken over my utility mages such as those two.

And that brings me to my final point; this was the nail in the coffin for anyone trying to run traditional support characters in other lanes, barring the occasional bruiser Taric top. The hypocrisy in this matter really bugs me; you're okay with traditional midlaners going support (barring one exception, RIP mid Zyra), but whenever a traditional support tries to go in another lane, they're nerfed heavily. I get that you think that Janna's waveclear was too ridiculous, or that Lulu's poke was too safe for the damage it dealt, but I am wondering why Orianna or Lux can have that waveclear, or why Nid or Lux can have that poke, but Janna and Lulu can't. I know, I know, they're different champions and therefore cannot be held to the same standard, but it's still annoying when you say that Soraka's sustain is toxic and then proceed to allow any ADC to buy a bloodthirster and proceed to sustain more then Soraka ever could.

Maybe we should just remove the 'support' class and just make them all utility mages/tanks. It'd certainly make things easire.


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SlitherySnakeSex

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Member

11-21-2013

Jatt has just stated that Annie/Fiddle/Lux will prove to be stronger in their supporting role due to the new changes, but supports get to be tankier and nab more CDR... which means what? More CC output? I don't know about that.

We get it. Supports aren't meant to do damage, they are meant to help their team, they don't need to do damage to be useful/impactful. But the bottom line is: Sona with at least a Rabadons slipped into her build will be able to assist in the poke game with her team.

I see the reason why people decided to choose Zyra/Fiddle/Annie in the bot lane to support: They were effective at CC. damage, and all in all helping their AD carry by doing some of the bursting themselves. One can argue that they don't have Aura items to help their team, but really... There is nothing more effective than killing the opponent.

And what does Fiddle do? He can 3 second fear someone and have his team decimate them. He can silence a team, which means they won't flash, he also can deal some good damage. Does he have anything like shields/Aura's?(Oh wait, his passive.. reduces MR by 20. Helps his mid by lowering some MR on the enemy.), or heals? What does that matter when the enemies AD carry gets feared for 3 seconds?

Zyra was taken bot because she can harass like a beast with her E. Her E R combo would lock an entire team down and have your team ace them. SHe brought damage, and that means more helpful than a traditional support.

Similar with Annie. These champions were replacing the traditional supports due to their ability to quick burst enemies down. People want to win a game fast. They don't feel like turtling it to victory with a support that must grab an Aura item and have them gain a slight increase in stats(One would argue that Stat boosts are really effective, but honestly with people like Fiddle stat boost Auras fall off flat when you die.)

People want to get out of game fast and win fast. They want fast pace not 1 hour long slow paced game play, again one would argue that I am wrong.

Traditional Supports are gaining utility scaling, yippie, but they are being less powerful in the long run. Fiddle will just be blatantly more powerful along with Annie who can grab a good GP10 item and get her Sightstone and rush her AP items faster.

While people like Sona are rushing Aura items and Ruby SightStone and maybe a few CDR items here or there, but with minimal scaling what is the use? Her Utility gets a smidge more stronger, unseen power is, well, under-appreciated.

Downvote me all you want, and hate me all you want I may be silver, but I do see why people chose to use Zyra, Annie, and Fiddle. They contain CC, they contain burst, they can get one major supporting item(Ruby Sightstone) and then start building damage. They are outclassing the Traditional supports and I feel that in S4 Traditional Supports will be obsolete.

However, it is the pre-season, you'll have time to see what mistakes you just made, or we'll have time to see what mistakes we made by arguing this fact.

EDIT: So it seems that the changes are good to supports, nothing too over the top just yet. Game is actually fun now to Support I feel like I am playing a different game altogether with this patch not only with supporting but with every lane.

Items are fun to grab, the pace of the game is a bit more faster,

Playing Leona with that new redesigned Philo is rewarding as balls. I can get Sunfire faster, the new Trinkets allow me to save money on gold while in lane. It's a beauty. For now.

So I was wrong about the changes and was terrified for nothing.