Support Scaling and duo lanes discussion

First Riot Post
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LoveSparkle

Senior Member

11-21-2013

My response to bot lane changes as a gold v support player: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...php?p=43000021

TL;DR: You have nerfed supports and new champs will become supports in a never ending cycle.


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Pomf Pomf Pomf

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

So why would I pick a support champion over an AP Carry in the bottom lane now when I can get my full build on either one?


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Moosenocalypse

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

1) We want to avoid a world where mages invalidate supports.
Funny, because that's exactly what you are going to accomplish.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
7 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia View Post
Ironically, Janna wasn't picked once at worlds! Win rate isn't everything, Rammus has had one of the highest win rates in the game for a long ass time now. So who knows what she does at a professional level. At my elo, Janna actually builds AP from support due to the scaling on shield and the "W" nuke. It's quite strong with Morellonomicon because the item is so inexpensive.

I see you're intent. You want supports to be utility mages, not just mages. The problem is that an extra 10%-20% slow late late game doesn't make up for the fact that Death is the best form of CC (which is one of the reasons Annie and Zyra are monsters right now, damage is favored over more utility like Janna). If utility scaling was more useful, Janna would have been picked at worlds. She wasn't. This means your design concept is flawed, and it will take a rebalancing of the MAGE class if you want these changes to ever work. Not to mention the base damages took a huge hit, so you force supports to build ap (invalidating many build paths), which they can't even make up for until they hit a decent amount of AP. I'm just really amazed you're convinced you didn't hammer the support class with nerfs. It's like please... Stop trying to help us.

You've also totally isolated supports like Janna from their solo lane, which I have a huge issue with.
So we tune it if it's off. Seems like a very simple issue, no?

I guess I don't know how to set up the concept of "preseason" more?


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Voliboar

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Morello, quit trying to add utility ratios on Sona. Instead buff her damage and nerf her tankiness or her heal. People weren't playing her as a support, they were essentially playing her as a mage bot lane. Balance her the same way you balance Zyra, do not nerf her damage for a ****ty haste/slow because her damage early game is what Sona players enjoy the most.


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Edzter

Senior Member

11-21-2013

hows about you stop releasing supports with sick cc like lissandra - slow, bind, stun, or zyra - snare, slow, knockup and instead release real casters like brand


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OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
the ability to bring supports into being first-class citizens with a unique identity.
People WANT this, but you and Riot refuse. You guys initially promised scaling utility, and people got excited, hoping for that amazing scaling Sona VROOM VROOM aura, or amazing scaling Soraka massive armor buff or extended silence.


Instead, we get:
- NERFED bases
- NERFED damage scaling
- UNTOUCHED or NERFED utility


You explicitly stated you don't want scaling CC, you said you don't want supports doing damage. Ok, what else is there to DO in this game? You can't even be a ward-***** now.


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mertatron

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Exactly. I think this expectation from supports being unsatisfying for so long has a lot to do with this, and that the fear of the AP mage coming in and invalidating this class of character. The latter is not an OK result - there's nothing I can shout from the rooftop more.
my question is why make utility on supports scale with AP and not something else ?

that wy supports would have to choose between AP and damage or other stat and utility

and then why did u nerf all utility on supports so they ned at least 200 AP to reach their old lvl

and at the same time nerfed their damage when u said u want to boost their utility .. so why nerfing it ??


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Zaresin

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Because in our tests, they performed too poorly due to their utility being a little too low and their gold being a bit too low for real damage. That has to be proven true based on exact amounts, items that you need to get to access it, level disparity (This is important! Getting to 6 and 11 significantly later is a big cost for a mage) and other factors. It's a very multi-threaded issue.
I can agree with this about the level and mage class....however, with the leveling changes...how would this affect that? Honest question.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
8 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epjest View Post
I'm interested in why you didn't just create a different stat allocation for Utility scaling.

Right now we have AD and AP for Damage scaling, but if you made a purely utility oriented scaling attribute that buying would ONLY increase the utility of abilities it would let you have strong support scaling that let supports do what they were designed to do rather than just having a tank/AP bot lane which is what the game honestly looks like it will turn into.

(aka, AD - for auto attacks, AD skills; AP - for AP damage abilities; and UT - for Utility spells)

You already do dual AD/AP scaling on a numerous amount of abilities, why not give supports real itemization rather than having to dip into mage/tank items? (The Gold generation items are just the *start* since now we can expect to build more than Boots + Sightstone)

The problem is after Boots + Sightstone + Gold Generation item the BEST OPTION is either pure tank (Leona, Blitz, Thresh) or RAW AP (Janna, Lulu, Annie).
This is an overly complex solution to the problem - why need a new stat to scale spells you want to scale? CC will not scale with a stat in League for a myriad of other reasons.