Support Scaling and duo lanes discussion

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Axium

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funster View Post
This is a dumb argument. Lulu has so many other tools that Lux doesn't have, and you're seriously comparing a Q to an R? Lux will still be weaker than a normal mage by mid-lane standards, so her ult will be sub-optimal and when you're hitting high numbers it might be too late in the game when everyone else is packing enough health and resists to deal with it. Lulu spamming AoE slows can end up being a lot more useful and doesn't require any ramp-up time to make it useful.
You overlooked the entire point of my post, and took that one scenario far too literally.

A dead enemy is much easier to handle than a slowed enemy. Perhaps that'll cut it. Having 5 champs pumping out CC and damage, easily surpasses 5 champs pumping out CC, with only 4 doing damage.

I can't think of a nerfed support that I'd rather have over a non-nerfed mage.

EDIT: You also seem to have forgotten that Lux can also spam AoE slows, which do a nice chunk of damage ontop.


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XuWarrior

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
True, though I'm about to go to bed and want to keep up on it. Stickying it might make people WHERE MORELLO AT?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2EUR...ature=youtu.be

Even Pro Players saying that All Nerfs to supports are bad. But Riot have always right ?


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mertatron

Senior Member

11-21-2013

more items

but ruby + boots + shurelia for exemple


means HP, 20% CDR, mana et health regen, ms

1 slot for pink ward ... we're still supports. ... so it means there are 2 slots left for items.


most supports reach their live utility if they reach 200 - 300 AP ... rabadon + zhonia

2 of the biggest AP items just to reach the old numbers ... wahou

I thugh I could build morellonomicon or athene's or rilay .. but no ... If I want the same utility as now, I need rabadon and zhonia ... isn't it a bit too much ???


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Wezz

Senior Member

11-21-2013

The ONLY way supports will be better than mages if if their cc scaling allowed for a 4 second+ stuns, 90% slows for 5 seconds, but that won't happen because it has little counterplay, noboody takes cleanse and only 3 items grant tenacity.

NOTHING beats a dead opponent, support's cc has to garuntee a kill for your carry.


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Funster

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teracide View Post
You overlooked the entire point of my post, and took that one scenario far too literally.

A dead enemy is much easier to handle than a slowed enemy. Perhaps that'll cut it. Having 5 champs pumping out CC and damage, easily surpasses 5 champs pumping out CC, with only 4 doing damage.

I can't think of a nerfed support that I'd rather have over a non-nerfed mage.
I see your point, but in this case I think the relative reliability of someone like Lulu trumps the potential damage of an underfarmed Lux. Even the best players miss Lux ults, and then it's on a chunky timer (especially if you can't afford the CDR because you're going heavily in to AP). But that Lulu Q is much easier to hit and can be cast a multitude of times before Lux would get a big burst combo back out.

It will be interesting to see, but I'm not worried about Lux taking over bot lane. She might be one of the big candidates though, as she's already almost a support with how much utility she brings anyway.


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Wertilq

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Be wary this is a REAAAALLY long post.

Supports is the type of gameplay class that is ALWAYS underrated, while not uncommonly providing extremely high power, but power people doesn't notice, or appreciate.

-warding. Many people found it unfun to ward, while vision wars and vision control was one of the absolutely strongest snowball mechanics in the game. It's the reason for the new vision in League.
-hard engage, soft engage, disengage, peeling, all very strong and important mechanics in teamfights, and supports often have these mechanics to their disposal, some or all of them, and they can singlehandedly win teamfights because they get a good engage, or because they manage to disengage at a key moment, or peel for the ADC etc.

People doesn't notice because it doesn't say PENTAKILL when a Sona hit a Flash Crescendo on 5 people.
They doesn't notice how hard she saved team by hitting E and Shurelias at a keymoment when enemy was rushing at when they was caught out.
Most people doesn't notice that it was YOUR ward that saw that one member of enemy team being alone so you caught him out, killing him, then forcing a 4v5 fight which lead to victory.
They doesn't notice the reason your ADC got a pentakill was that you as support constantly peeled for him, to keep the enemy off his back, that you fed him with a silverspoon during lane, and poked down enemy ADC in lane.

Supports have indirect powers, and people doesn't appreciate it because they want direct rewards. People want to do damage, they want to kill, they want to run in the front-lines. Support is about strategy, about subtle manipulation, about control and protection.

Supports in lane is key member for trading, supports do as much trading in lane as the ADC does, if not more in some cases. Supports tank damage and pressure the enemy ADC. They provide CC and sets up plays. The only thing support doesn't do is to kill minions, get kills ands lots of gold for items. THat is meant for the ADC, the ADC is the one scaling, not the support. This puts you out of the spotlight, no matter how hard you carry.

Just look at the most famous supports, Edward and Madlife, why are they so famous? Because they play flashy champs, both are famous for blitz and thresh. When they do well you notice, because they hit good hooks. People only notice the flashy things.
This is why Master Yi and Darius was percieved as OP, because they was so flashy. In teamfights they went wild, even if they didn't do most of the damage, they got lots of kills and resets, and they have fairly flashy abilities.

Flashy = people notice it. Spotlight is more important than power. If Riot made a champion that dealt extremely low damage, but did burst damage that was triggered on enemies with low HP, people would find that champ OP, even if the real damage dealt was low.

You need a mentality of a teacher, a parent, a mentor to be support, not of a egocentric me-person that want to be in the spotlight all the time. What you do you will not be appreciated for, people will whine when you don't provide it, but you know you're the one winning games when you do your thing.

Look at another game, with EXTREMELY overpowered supports; TF2.
You have the medic, he can heal you for 150% of your base health, and provide a super strong offensive buff that can also be used defensively. Either you become invulnerable, deal so high damage you instant-gib people, or make you close to invulnerable tanky.
The class is so much stronger than all other classes it's not even funny. If you play a game on a pub and either team get a single medic, and other team doesn't, that team will win if it's a medic that knows how to play.

People still doesn't play medic, they prefer other support classes, they prefer the spy or sniper, which have direct powers, but still are only support classes that can't carry on their own. They get kills, they get spotlight, and they are disruptive, even if they are very much less useful than the medic.

It's not about power, it's about noticing the power, and the indirect nature of your power. Buffing whole your team to 1.5 as much health and constantly providing health to team, is not as easy to appreciate as getting occational one hit kills to key targets.

It's the same in LoL people see the assassins that get pentakills more than they see the supports that get penta-stuns, and perfect engages. This is a problem of mentality and most probably Riot can't fix this easily.

What you NEED to do to fix it, is to spotlight support-plays more. Show off individual plays for other things than just kills. All support scaling in the world wont really change things.


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Hidden Dragon

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funster View Post
I see your point, but in this case I think the relative reliability of someone like Lulu trumps the potential damage of an underfarmed Lux. Even the best players miss Lux ults, and then it's on a chunky timer (especially if you can't afford the CDR because you're going heavily in to AP). But that Lulu Q is much easier to hit and can be cast a multitude of times before Lux would get a big burst combo back out.

It will be interesting to see, but I'm not worried about Lux taking over bot lane. She might be one of the big candidates though, as she's already almost a support with how much utility she brings anyway.
Except Lulu's base damage now is worse than Lux's. Lulu's scaling is also worse than Lux's. In any scenario, Lux does more.


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Pokeprof

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teracide View Post
We keep talking about potential, but that's not really the issue here.

The nerfs would be fine if AP mages weren't already invading the support role. Do you realize how powerful a Fiddle, Annie, or Lux is with 2-3 AP items? For the same time and gold it would take to make a support champ comparable to how they currently are, you could stock up an AP mage with the same items, and they'd actually be able to do something other than slow someone for a few seconds.

Void Scepter/Rabadon's Lux-ult into a team fight, or Athene's/Rabadon's Glitterlance into a team fight? Maybe that'll put it into perspective.
Last I checked, Fiddles and Lux we already been used often in support roles often enough throughout season three; with the former having no other place to go and the latter simply being useful because she could shield and root enemies down while staying far away from potential threats. Annie, for the most part, is a lot more recent because of Worlds and other tourneys and I'm honestly fine with her there, because last I checked Annie kinda doesn't exist mid anymore past Silver.

You guys are also only thinking in scopes of damage, not just actual abilities. Is a Lux going to do a lot of damage with her Ulti with some 300 AP behind her? Yes. Is that going to be meaning anything? Depends on the game. That extra damage won't mean a thing if her lane still fails against the other botlane and the Lulu's ulti flat out makes Lux's extra damage useless. Again, the whole point of the preseason is no one, not you, not me, not riot are certain exactly where the chips are going to fall. You and I can throw numbers around until we're blue in the face, but we ALL know for a fact that Numbers on a champion does NOT equal victories on summoner's rift.


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Draemei

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Anyone notice that people just kinda like to cry about things that do not directly affect them in any way?

I would love to see the numbers crunched here, how many players posting here actually play support?
I'm guessing it's not high.

All the positive feedback here (which is very little) is most likely coming from the main-support players such as myself. Because we can see how these changes are actually useful.

I just don't see a lot of people who main support here crying about the changes.

So anyways, if you don't play support - just leave it alone. Riot will balance any under-powered / over-powered things in question.

And another thing, this whole "annie is a great support" thing - is really getting over-played. I can't even count how many annie supports I have snuffed out with Sona / Leona in the last month, I really can't. I love rubbing it in during the lane phase too.

"Go home annie, you don't belong here"

Keep doing what you do Riot. The true support players, and the true League players will be with you 100%.
Go ahead and let the kids go back to those other games that are better than League of Legends like - wait, couldn't think of any...


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Gespens

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draemei View Post
Anyone notice that people just kinda like to cry about things that do not directly affect them in any way?

I would love to see the numbers crunched here, how many players posting here actually play support?
I'm guessing it's not high.
Give me numbers and characters to crunch. I'll do it.