Support Scaling and duo lanes discussion

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Neo

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

What about adding a new type of scaling? There's Attack Damage (basic physical damage) and Ability Power (basic magic damage).
Well how about a new one which champions labeled as support have scaling with.
Something along the lines of Mysticism (utility scaling).
A chain of items could be released that have Mysticism bonuses and support abilities could be given Mysticism ratios.

Example:
Farseer's Imbrace
+250 Health, +300 Mana, +10 Mysticism

Lets say Sona buys this item.
She buys this item for some tankiness and mana for spell upkeep. With Mysticism her utility can now scale without having to buy Ability Power how it will be soon.
Hymn of Valor could give a bit more bonus attack damage and ability power with large amounts of Mysticism. Staccato would be unchanged.
Aria of Perseverance could would give more bonus armor and magic resistance with Mysticism. Also the damage reduction from Diminuendo could be increased. High Mysticism would lead to higher damage reduction. Could be capped around 35% or so.
Song of Celerity would give a larger movement speed bonus and Tempo would be given larger movement speed slows. High Mysticism could have the potential to slow enemies by 60% or more!

This is just something I thought of rather than having a confrontation between utility supports and utility mages being in the support role.

This would stil allow utility mages to go botlane. They would bring decent damage and small crowd control effects or heals to the team with Ability Power purchases.

Utility supports can now be in the botlane without having to purchase ability power to have their utility crowd control and healing spells to be effective. Now they can build Mysticism items which would scale their utility.

So you have the option of utility mage supports who bring damage and small heals/crowd control versus pure utility supports who bring very little damage and high heals/crowd control/utility.

Thoughts?

This wouldn't affect any support abilities containing hard crowd control. Only the utility aspects of heals, slows, hastens, buffs, etc.


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Sageoffire

Senior Member

11-21-2013

where is that fine line of balance between a mage with 'enough' utility, and support?

look at things in a vacuum for a second:
Mage Q does 300 damage and slows by 25% for 4 second.
support Q does 150 damage and slows by x% for 4 second.

30% is surely too low to compensate for the damage difference.
50% is nothing special, lots of champs can do that already
75% is getting pretty high, but is that enough?
80% is crazy, but still, is that enough?
85% is absurd, and still, is it enough?
90%? that just ... oh god painful to deal with on the receiving end, but is THAT enough?

what about hard CC?
how much longer does a stun need to be to 'balance' against a 'mage' thats also doing 2x the damage, and scaling 2x as well?

scaling utility is a good idea but balancing it against scaling damage, which is quantifiable, doesnt work well. the point that utility surpasses damage is quite possibly in the 'anti fun' catagory.


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Fisherman Fizz

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVNsNASmurf View Post
I'll wait til I try it in the wild to make a call.

Regardless of what these changes actually do, I still absolutely despise every aspect of all but one support 'champion'. Their abilities, visuals, and entire concept are repulsive to come into contact with.
There will definitely be some mages that work. Mostly the ones like Annie or Zyra that already work well in bot lane are still going to work. Balance is probably going to be a mess but as far as the support role itself is concerned it feels way more fun to play than it does now.


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Axium

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokeprof View Post
From the math I've been seeing, the only one who seems to be a bit out there in how much AP she's going to need to build has been Soraka, who's been enough of a problem champion in the past that I'm fairly certain Riot's wanting to play safe with her. That said, Soraka's new infuse seems to SCREAM for her to build an Archangels, which is among the highest scaling ap items in the game, so there's that.

Everyone else seems to be balancing out around the 150 to 300 AP mark, which is going to be about two or three ap items and most of these supports are going to be building the CDR+AP items like Athenes and Morellonomicon. Add in a Deathcap and you've got about where they balance out. Does this mean they'll be a bit weaker until they get up to that? Possibly. But this also means that they've got the potential to go BEYOND that, which is something they've never had before. I can't tell you what it's going to be like to use Nami and have her Heal and get STRONGER as it bounce.

Am I saying that Supports (And Junglers) are going to be perfectly balanced with this first patch? Not at all. And Riot said as much that if they prove to be too weak, they're not afraid if either buffing them or nerfing the classes that they think might push them out (mages). Let's WAIT till we see what's going to happen before saying the sky is going to fall.
We keep talking about potential, but that's not really the issue here.

The nerfs would be fine if AP mages weren't already invading the support role. Do you realize how powerful a Fiddle, Annie, or Lux is with 2-3 AP items? For the same time and gold it would take to make a support champ comparable to how they currently are, you could stock up an AP mage with the same items, and they'd actually be able to do something other than slow someone for a few seconds.

Void Scepter/Rabadon's Lux-ult into a team fight, or Athene's/Rabadon's Glitterlance into a team fight? Maybe that'll put it into perspective.


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Funster

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageoffire View Post
where is that fine line of balance between a mage with 'enough' utility, and support?

look at things in a vacuum for a second:
Mage Q does 300 damage and slows by 25% for 4 second.
support Q does 150 damage and slows by x% for 4 second.

30% is surely too low to compensate for the damage difference.
50% is nothing special, lots of champs can do that already
75% is getting pretty high, but is that enough?
80% is crazy, but still, is that enough?
85% is absurd, and still, is it enough?
90%? that just ... oh god painful to deal with on the receiving end, but is THAT enough?

what about hard CC?
how much longer does a stun need to be to 'balance' against a 'mage' thats also doing 2x the damage, and scaling 2x as well?

scaling utility is a good idea but balancing it against scaling damage, which is quantifiable, doesnt work well. the point that utility surpasses damage is quite possibly in the 'anti fun' catagory.
You're looking at this in a very narrow scope, regardless of the opinion you're making. You have to consider cooldowns, the rest of their kit, useful item paths etc. Supports are going to have easier paths in to CDR, so they can be throwing out a lot more slows than the mage who does more damage, regardless of how good either of those slows are. They will also be able to use more of the active effect items, so it's really hard to judge this kind of power just based on damage numbers.


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LVNsNASmurf

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmbushIntheDark View Post
I forgot that you and Riot are clearly the absolute authority on what anyone could conceive as fun. How dare I actually enjoy a vital job in playing this game.
You're a minority, one of the few people that can glean entertainment out of this stunted and un-engaging form of play. If you haven't noticed, the community at general hated it with utter vitrol, and dodged games, flamed constantly, and generally turned into arseholes when made to do it.

Whats more, they didn't even have the option of not doing this job, because if it wasn't done, it was an instant throw.

Imagine a game of football, where one player has to break his foot with a hammer, and if they don't some weird mechanic says that players team loses 98% of the time. You're the person who likes breaking their foot with a hammer.

Quote:
Fun =/= healthy though.
Fun includes fun for the opponents. I love dodging hooks all day, laughing. It's fun and healthy to have pull skills be skillshots. It's not fun or healthy to have a single option about how to deal with Udyr (run) regardless of what it feels like for Udyr.


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Funster

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teracide View Post
Void Scepter/Rabadon's Lux-ult into a team fight, or Athene's/Rabadon's Glitterlance into a team fight? Maybe that'll put it into perspective.
This is a dumb argument. Lulu has so many other tools that Lux doesn't have, and you're seriously comparing a Q to an R? Lux will still be weaker than a normal mage by mid-lane standards, so her ult will be sub-optimal and when you're hitting high numbers it might be too late in the game when everyone else is packing enough health and resists to deal with it. Lulu spamming AoE slows can end up being a lot more useful and doesn't require any ramp-up time to make it useful.


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LVNsNASmurf

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman Fizz View Post
There will definitely be some mages that work. Mostly the ones like Annie or Zyra that already work well in bot lane are still going to work. Balance is probably going to be a mess but as far as the support role itself is concerned it feels way more fun to play than it does now.
I don't care if sona has numbers which would cause her to be a first pick / ban in worlds. Gragas did and I hate that champion with every fibre of my being. It's their visuals, skills and theme that are repulsive, not their role or playstyle.

As for some mages that work, I can see many early game fighters ripping up too, champions like Pantheon and Xin.


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Pokeprof

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindLord7070 View Post
the thing is tho sups have to build sight stone they have to build the gold item wihc is only 50 ap and have to have a slot free for a pink and then boots so we ahve 2 slots to work with which doenst leave any itemization because ud be stupid not to try and get a death cap so thats like 200 ap which i think hits the utility of where they are at now and then if you are lucky to get another item you get that little bit of an increase that riot is really trying to make appeal to support players
That's just the thing. There's NOTHING forcing a support to buy sightstone now. Is it going to be a likely buy, particularly on the tanky supports such as thresh and leona? Most likely. But caster supports and kill lanes will likely never go beyond their own trinkets now, as I'd highly suspect that instead of wasting your money on a normal pink ward, they'll just upgrade their trinkets into the Pink ward variation. In all honest truth, I expect Sightstone to be a JUNGLER item now for more then Lee Sin as their general map presence makes them a much better candidate for going about and plopping wards down. Regardless, the one thing you've got to realize more then all else is that supports aren't going to be your little ward ***** anymore, nor should you expect them to be.

I will be not surprised if, in a normal game that lasts half an hour, supports will have at least 300 AP in their items, if not more if they're doing exceptionally well. Hell, if Soraka is able to time her Wish right, I wouldn't be surprised that her Assist streak gold goes through the roof and allows her to build that 600 AP easier then most champions.

Regardless, we simply don't know WHAT'S going to be happening because this hasn't been widely tested. If it turns out the numbers for the supports to be back to a 'normal' state is too off course, Riot has already said 'YES, WE WILL CHANGE THIS.'. Give it some time, and let us SEE what's going to happen.


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Vonricter

Senior Member

11-21-2013

as far as im concerned these changes are great

now that the support role can actually scale into late game bot lane is open to WAY more possibilities, i dont see why this is bad