Support Scaling and duo lanes discussion

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LVNsNASmurf

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman Fizz View Post
Acutally, you'll just get dunked at this exact point because you don't have the damage items you need whereas a more standard support already has a good amount of utility to fight you with. It's happened every single time I've seen someone (including me) try to put someone dumb in bot lane.
I'll wait til I try it in the wild to make a call.

Regardless of what these changes actually do, I still absolutely despise every aspect of all but one support 'champion'. Their abilities, visuals, and entire concept are repulsive to come into contact with.


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Mynt

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

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Originally Posted by OMG halp meh plz View Post
That is not at all what I was saying or arguing, nor do I care about which was the original. Dota has had "composition choices" for longer than LoL, it is one of the reasons people preferred LoL (see any "Dota sucks" thread)
You're arguing that Zelda I had the concept of Link longer than Zelda II did.

Hint: There's a reason we have an item in this game called "Guinsoo's Rageblade."


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Gespens

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

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Originally Posted by MrHarz View Post
Can we talk about the Lulu changes a bit?

I played a hell of a lot of Lulu this season, she was always my favourite support and I came back to LoL after a long break right as an assassin meta was kicking in, which made me really happy.

The original wave of changes that went onto the PBE for her looked pretty nice, but apparently some things have changed and I've had trouble keeping up with every PBE patch (there were so many,) and I'm kind of worried.

First off is the change to her passive.



So her early game damage with Pix has been somewhat nerfed in exchange for it scaling better with AP later. Now while that makes displacing Pix onto an ally lategame or Nashor's Tooth builds better, nerfing Lulu's poke early hurts. Her high mana costs already limit it quite heavily despite her being probably the quintessential poke support.

I already feel like my poke is irrelevant once the enemy AD gets a vamp sceptre to go with his lifesteal quints, this just makes it worse.



This is actually awesome, and very noticable once you get some AP.



The ms changes are pretty good, I never really went heavy AP in my PBE games so I'd usually average around 150~200, which gave me a 45~50% ms increase, which was quite nice.

The AP was removed. This is something I take issue with, Lulu's ability to give an ally 60 AP in a teamfight was pretty enormous, and actually meant there was a choice between "polymorph bad guy" or "give Brand or something a huge boost to his damage." Now polymorphing is going to be the way to go every time.

I also don't think there's been any changes to her kit that make up for her losing that 60 AP.



This used to be something like:

Offensive ratio reduced to 0.4 (from 0.6)
Shield ratio increased to 0.8 (from 0.6)

What happened to that? I'm really confused as to why a rebalance of the power of this ability was turned into a straight nerf.
I have a friend who is diamond/challenger (ranked 5s) who is a Lulu main. His only complaint really is that because of the E nerf, Lulu lost a big amount of damage by the team fights start, IF SHE GOES AP SOLO LANE.

93 AP is the amount it takes for Passive to balance off at level 18, and by that point, your W has a stronger boost, and the slow decays to 12.4%.


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Pokeprof

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11-21-2013

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Originally Posted by WindLord7070 View Post
supports are getting more gold but still need a lot of ap to be less useful than they are now which makes no sense at all
From the math I've been seeing, the only one who seems to be a bit out there in how much AP she's going to need to build has been Soraka, who's been enough of a problem champion in the past that I'm fairly certain Riot's wanting to play safe with her. That said, Soraka's new infuse seems to SCREAM for her to build an Archangels, which is among the highest scaling ap items in the game, so there's that.

Everyone else seems to be balancing out around the 150 to 300 AP mark, which is going to be about two or three ap items and most of these supports are going to be building the CDR+AP items like Athenes and Morellonomicon. Add in a Deathcap and you've got about where they balance out. Does this mean they'll be a bit weaker until they get up to that? Possibly. But this also means that they've got the potential to go BEYOND that, which is something they've never had before. I can't tell you what it's going to be like to use Nami and have her Heal and get STRONGER as it bounce.

Am I saying that Supports (And Junglers) are going to be perfectly balanced with this first patch? Not at all. And Riot said as much that if they prove to be too weak, they're not afraid if either buffing them or nerfing the classes that they think might push them out (mages). Let's WAIT till we see what's going to happen before saying the sky is going to fall.


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LVNsNASmurf

Senior Member

11-21-2013

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Originally Posted by AmbushIntheDark View Post
But it is fun.
If it was fun and healthy, this patch wouldn't be centred around Riot removing it. You don't have a point, and I have one straight from the devs.


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Funster

Senior Member

11-21-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's because that role is interesting to very competitive players because it shows skill, but that's a narrow focus. This isn't to fix balance - it's to fix the problem that supports have to be everyone's ***** to be successful.

How can Sona have a 56% win rate and feel bad? Or Janna a 55% and nerfs are met with religious fervor saved for weak characters? How can we see pro games where the best support player has a pair of boots and expect that to be satisfying?

That's the problem we're looking to solve here.
I can't thumbs up this enough.


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AmbushIntheDark

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVNsNASmurf View Post
If it was fun and healthy, this patch wouldn't be centred around Riot removing it. You don't have a point, and I have one straight from the devs.
I forgot that you and Riot are clearly the absolute authority on what anyone could conceive as fun. How dare I actually enjoy a vital job in playing this game.


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Gespens

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVNsNASmurf View Post
If it was fun and healthy, this patch wouldn't be centred around Riot removing it. You don't have a point, and I have one straight from the devs.
Fun =/= healthy though.

Release Lulu was fun. She also wave cleared better than any other mage at the time, had amazing poke and mobility, while turning anyone she wanted into a health tank with her 600 AP ults for about 1000 health.


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OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mynt View Post
You're arguing that Zelda I had the concept of Link longer than Zelda II did.

Hint: There's a reason we have an item in this game called "Guinsoo's Rageblade."

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. LoL is DotA 2?


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WindLord7070

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokeprof View Post
From the math I've been seeing, the only one who seems to be a bit out there in how much AP she's going to need to build has been Soraka, who's been enough of a problem champion in the past that I'm fairly certain Riot's wanting to play safe with her. That said, Soraka's new infuse seems to SCREAM for her to build an Archangels, which is among the highest scaling ap items in the game, so there's that.

Everyone else seems to be balancing out around the 150 to 300 AP mark, which is going to be about two or three ap items and most of these supports are going to be building the CDR+AP items like Athenes and Morellonomicon. Add in a Deathcap and you've got about where they balance out. Does this mean they'll be a bit weaker until they get up to that? Possibly. But this also means that they've got the potential to go BEYOND that, which is something they've never had before. I can't tell you what it's going to be like to use Nami and have her Heal and get STRONGER as it bounce.

Am I saying that Supports (And Junglers) are going to be perfectly balanced with this first patch? Not at all. And Riot said as much that if they prove to be too weak, they're not afraid if either buffing them or nerfing the classes that they think might push them out (mages). Let's WAIT till we see what's going to happen before saying the sky is going to fall.
the thing is tho sups have to build sight stone they have to build the gold item wihc is only 50 ap and have to have a slot free for a pink and then boots so we ahve 2 slots to work with which doenst leave any itemization because ud be stupid not to try and get a death cap so thats like 200 ap which i think hits the utility of where they are at now and then if you are lucky to get another item you get that little bit of an increase that riot is really trying to make appeal to support players

and i agree about waiting to see how they end up working out and changing them later on but the numbers jsut seem to be so low i dont see how they made it to the pathc in the first place