Support Scaling and duo lanes discussion

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WindLord7070

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokeprof View Post
I kinda love how everyones going nuts with supports and what not when I'm kinda more in this boat with Junglers. Supports are CLEARLY going to be getting more golds worth out of their items, particularly since they're going to be earning it from minute one. Junglers, on the other hand, still gotta build up to their gold items, have one of them (Wriggles) be horribly weak, and in general we're still facing the problems of Lanes determining what is going to be happening with the jungle, as we won't be able to farm up as we need to if we're having to drop everything at lv 3 to gank.

That said, I think Changes in both might do well, but while I'm much more confident in the Support changes being good, I'm less then convince with the Jungle. I've also gotta say I'm more confused by the Will of the Ancients change and what it's place is exactly supposed to BE now, as well as if we're going to see anymore sweeping changes (IE, More items, bigger character changes, etc) before the true season starts or if this is going to be the limit of what we see.

Also, Morello, just because you told us to remind you, updates on the Master of Metal?
supports are getting more gold but still need a lot of ap to be less useful than they are now which makes no sense at all


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MrHarz

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Can we talk about the Lulu changes a bit?

I played a hell of a lot of Lulu this season, she was always my favourite support and I came back to LoL after a long break right as an assassin meta was kicking in, which made me really happy.

The original wave of changes that went onto the PBE for her looked pretty nice, but apparently some things have changed and I've had trouble keeping up with every PBE patch (there were so many,) and I'm kind of worried.

First off is the change to her passive.

Quote:
Passive - Pix, Faerie Companion

Added a 0.15 Ability Power ratio
Base damage reduced to 9 / 18 / 27 / 36 / 45 / 54 / 63 / 72 / 81 (+0.15 Ability Power) (from 9 / 21 / 33 / 45 / 57 / 69 / 81 / 93 / 105 (+0 Ability Power)
So her early game damage with Pix has been somewhat nerfed in exchange for it scaling better with AP later. Now while that makes displacing Pix onto an ally lategame or Nashor's Tooth builds better, nerfing Lulu's poke early hurts. Her high mana costs already limit it quite heavily despite her being probably the quintessential poke support.

I already feel like my poke is irrelevant once the enemy AD gets a vamp sceptre to go with his lifesteal quints, this just makes it worse.

Quote:
Q Glitterlance

Rather than decaying to 0% over a certain duration, the slow now decays to 1% per 7.5 Ability Power over its duration
This is actually awesome, and very noticable once you get some AP.

Quote:
W Whimsy

Movement Speed bonus now scales at +1% per 10 Ability Power (0.1 AP Ratio)
Removed the Ability Power boost
Base movement speed increase reduced to 30% (from 35%)
The ms changes are pretty good, I never really went heavy AP in my PBE games so I'd usually average around 150~200, which gave me a 45~50% ms increase, which was quite nice.

The AP was removed. This is something I take issue with, Lulu's ability to give an ally 60 AP in a teamfight was pretty enormous, and actually meant there was a choice between "polymorph bad guy" or "give Brand or something a huge boost to his damage." Now polymorphing is going to be the way to go every time.

I also don't think there's been any changes to her kit that make up for her losing that 60 AP.

Quote:
E - Help Pix!

Offensive damage Ability Power ratio reduced to 0.4 (from 0.6)
This used to be something like:

Offensive ratio reduced to 0.4 (from 0.6)
Shield ratio increased to 0.8 (from 0.6)

What happened to that? I'm really confused as to why a rebalance of the power of this ability was turned into a straight nerf.


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Fisherman Fizz

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVNsNASmurf View Post
And at that point, I'll be chuckling with my mage / fighter, as I'll be all amped up to do some damage. Heck, I might even just run dual ADCs for the serious lane pressure you can put down.
Acutally, you'll just get dunked at this exact point because you don't have the damage items you need whereas a more standard support already has a good amount of utility to fight you with. It's happened every single time I've seen someone (including me) try to put someone dumb in bot lane.

This is the part that's really hard to conceptualize without actually seeing it happen in game and it's really important.


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Hellioning

Senior Member

11-21-2013

You know what, I completely forgot about something in my wall o text, so here it is.

I'm going to miss being able to solo lane as a support champion. I get that they were never really viable (and if they were, they were nerfed in short order) but it was FUN to play Sona mid and poke forever. It was FUN to land those ridiculous max charge tornadoes. It was FUN to wade into the fray as Soraka and give everyone negative MR. My proudest League match ever was completely shutting down the enemy Talon with old Karma, when she was considered a troll pick.

Now? I can't do that anymore. It's always been a tradeoff between utility and damage when you take a support mid, but now the damage is so low you can't possibly justify it. I know that this was never really optimal, but dammit it was fun, and I hate to see it go.


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OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mynt View Post
If you're going to make comparisons about which game was the "original,"

That is not at all what I was saying or arguing, nor do I care about which was the original. Dota has had "composition choices" for longer than LoL, it is one of the reasons people preferred LoL (see any "Dota sucks" thread)

Its fine if Riot wants to push LoL that way, but its going to take far more than support changes to do that properly.


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Annaris

Member

11-21-2013

Since supports are now required to get hundreds of AP to do their job as effectively as before, when will support items get a buff to AP bonuses to assist with that? I saw a 10 point increase on the double ghost item, but not much else... Not to the levels of say DFG or Zhonya's, but more than 30 or 40 per item would help, giving more itemization variety. Or will it wait until support items are not taken by anyone because support players need the AP on the mage items to be effective?


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AmbushIntheDark

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVNsNASmurf View Post
(I meant suck as in it's not fun, not that it's not effective).

Actually, it sodding well does suck to get no gold compared to the rest of the team, and to drop it all into ward. It feels HORRIBLE. It's 45 minutes in, I have a sightstone, boots, one item, and a horde of wards. Top, mid and ADC have just sold their boots for more item slots....

Damn.

I perfectly understand how strong vision is, indeed, I mentioned that not getting vision is pretty much throwing the game. That doesn't mean its a healthy, fun, or engaging playstyle for the poor sod who has to do the warding. It's in the preseason explanation that they recognised that play-style sucks.

But it is fun. Who gives a **** about what the other roles are building when you know they couldnt find their own dick if it wasnt for you showing them where it was. If its 45 mins in (and the games not already over) I know that if it wasnt for me doing what ive been doing that my ADC selling his boots wouldnt mean dick.

You just dont enjoy the role, and thats ok, but that also means that you shouldnt be complaining about it.


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Vempyre

Senior Member

11-21-2013

I really like the changes honestly, I just hope future champion reworks steer them towards the new support bot role,like Galio, or shift around some things with Zyra's support side, or Kayle + Morgana and make them a bit more appealing in bottom lane as compared to solo lanes ( I love Solo lane Morg though )




I also think Taric needs a new passice that doesn't involving Auto Attacking, I could see him a sa strong top laner again, and I don't like the whole Auto Attack reliant passives when bot lane is 80 % of the time 2 ranges champions.


Maybe making it to where his passive gives him some sort of resistance or immunities for a short time after casting a spell?

I am so excited for Season 4 as I main Support and Farm heavy junglers. =)


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Gespens

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

What exactly did you test?

I like the changes themselves; every single one is cool, though I do feel that in some cases you missed the mark (why is so much sona focus given to power chord and song of celerity and not her auras?).

However, more then anything, the numbers on everyone but Lulu (Level 18 needs 93 AP for Passive to match old numbers, 50 AP for W speed boost) feel a bit... low.

Case in point, Sona. Her Speed Boost is tied to the active. At 300 AP, which I feel is a reasonable number, she gets 18% MS to allied units. On the fastest champ in the game, mastr Yi, this amounts to 63.9 MS. To give this much to her entire team for sure, Nami needs 239 AP. At the same AP, Tide Caller's Blessing slows for 47.45%. 300 AP = 52% slow. A relatively minor difference, especially considering the difference in AP. With 300 AP, Nami's slow is 50%. Miniscule.

Do you see where I'm coming from here morello? You have the right idea with these changes, however it is unimpressive in terms of numbers.

Furthermore, Sona's lane power comes from her poke. You weakened that. What are we supposed to do? At 70 AP (Frost Queen's Claim + Q Rank 5), Sona's Q + Power Chord combo does 463 damage. You honestly arbitrarily added a ratio to Staccato. We lose a VERY large amount of poke if we use any chord BUT Staccatto.


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Shattered Clock

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
True, though I'm about to go to bed and want to keep up on it. Stickying it might make people WHERE MORELLO AT?!
Going to have your dreams of a battered, weeping Irelia holding a destitute Soraka for warmth as you menace towards them with your mighty[throbbing] nerf bat unsheathed?