Support Scaling and duo lanes discussion

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Sophitia

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Side note, it might be a good idea to sticky this thread, because there's a lot of conversation that people want to have about this issue, and it will definitely continue once the patch goes live.


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LVNsNASmurf

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmbushIntheDark View Post
Vision and Mobility. There is a reason why supports have been buying wards all this time.
I disagree and yet, agree. I disagree because to me, vision is about not losing. Seeing something doesn't help you kill a tower, it simply informs you of whats happening when you choose to kill, or not kill a tower. Yet I agree, because the power of the "not losing" of this vision was so strong failing to do it was "we auto lose unless we do the "not lose" mechanic".

It it was kinda awesome as a unique support champion limited mechanic. Except it sucked to actually play like that, and in the new changes, it's been removed.

RIP.


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OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think because in team games, clear functions and tradeoffs makes a healthier PvP experience with strengths, weaknesses and composition choices. To me, for the kind of game League is, I think has more value that higher item variety or expressions within a single character. This is not a popular view because for an individual experience this is more fun. For an ecosystem, it can lead to erosion and disengagement from weak competitive frameworks and tradeoffs.

Maybe if redoing from the ground-up, we could better optimize this for less tradeoffs.
Eh, I actually disagree with this. IMO part of LoL's initial design philosophy and appeal was character versatility. Its why AP Trist and AP Yi exist(ed).

What you've just said is exactly what DotA's game design is. There is nothing wrong with it, except why go that route NOW, when DotA has had this approach for far longer and is more balanced because of it?


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WindLord7070

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden Dragon View Post
From Reddit (someone did the math):
damn that is terrible..........really hope this gets changed theres no way you can get that mcuh ap most of the time...god damn it now im sad


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TSM Lomo Cat

Junior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitty Caitlyn View Post
Why is Thresh still untouched? Theres no reasonable explanation as to why the strongest support in the game has no nerfs at all
probably cause you're not crying hard enough on the forums


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mertatron

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We had a similar reaction internally. THIS IS GOING TO BE HORRI - oh wow. I can do stuff. Oh damn.

Not conclusive, but our testing has helped us get to the initial release - with pros, external vendors, gameplay analysts and PBE. It's literally the most testing we can do before live because we agree there's a lot happening here!
yeah now supports can do stuff, so can xerath support .. so can leona support, so can annie or zyra support

it's not about the items and gold flow changes ... it's about balance between core supports and utility mages or killing lanes

utility mages and kiling lanes haven't beed changed and on top of their CC and burst, it wil be less kill or starve ... while supports are nerfed.

in comparison they will be able to buy items but compared to other champs and other potential non core supports, it's a nerf


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Fisherman Fizz

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We had a similar reaction internally. THIS IS GOING TO BE HORRI - oh wow. I can do stuff. Oh damn.

Not conclusive, but our testing has helped us get to the initial release - with pros, external vendors, gameplay analysts and PBE. It's literally the most testing we can do before live because we agree there's a lot happening here!
The first time I bought Ruby Sightstone it took a while to sink in that I was done buying wards for the rest of the game and I was free to use the rest of my gold however I wanted. Once you go back to the shop after that and spend all your gold on real items it's the best feeling ever.


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Think I'll apologize for any incoherence, running on sleep deprivation and caffeine fumes does my thought processes no favors. Hooray for projects that require no effort.

To put it most simply: Putting supports into a utility-centric role (disruption, buffs, and healing, in other words) is 100% awesome and ok.

it's just not cool when there's another subset of characters that do the disruption debatably better in addition to actually dealing damage.

...or if the utility numbers are undertuned but that's a knob to tweak after getting all the annies and whatnot back where people agree on.

buuuuuuut the thought of "hey guys mids are kinda ridiculous" is an unpopular one compared to "wtf supports UP". :|


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Shattered Clock

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
The passive adds a lot of in-fight power if you use it well, though could have been overzealous from testing results. Soraka is a unique snowflake of weird stuff overall, so this one being off wouldn't surprise me (how to fix dedicated healer...)
For starters, allow her to have a better heal than Nidalee.

She is literally outhealed by every single champ in league that has a heal. For a "dedicated healer," she provides the lowest HPS out of any "healer," unless she Wishes really hard and Astrally Blesses you within .5 seconds of one another. Then she's OOM because our wonderful Unicorn Girl has atrocious mana costs.

And having to hit 600 AP to break even with her goldless self is kind of a dick move. She has no mobility, no hard CC, and lacks a lot of the tools to do anything except shred a ton of MR off. Her damage should be higher since she is a vastly more dangerous pick to be since, if you get caught, you are probably going to die. Battleraka was a great playstyle and now it will be gone forever.

You know what, make Soraka a full blown mage. I give up on trying to make her work as a support because apparently Unicorn Girls are toxic. .7 and .8 AP scaling on all abilities, W is reworked in to an AoE knockback or something, and better bases. BAM, fixed.


Also, +16 MR to Soraka. Her high MR was an absolute godsend against early game assassins that try to farm you.


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AmbushIntheDark

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVNsNASmurf View Post
I disagree and yet, agree. I disagree because to me, vision is about not losing. Seeing something doesn't help you kill a tower, it simply informs you of whats happening when you choose to kill, or not kill a tower. Yet I agree, because the power of the "not losing" of this vision was so strong failing to do it was "we auto lose unless we do the "not lose" mechanic".

It it was kinda awesome as a unique support champion limited mechanic. Except it sucked to actually play like that, and in the new changes, it's been removed.

RIP.
Except it doesnt suck to play like that. I hate how boring ADC feels in lane but it doesnt make the "get babysat and lasthit for 20 mins" style of ADC bad, it just makes it one that I dont personally enjoy. Anyone that truly understood the value of vision knows the level of impact theyre having on the game. Just because people dont understand what it is theyre doing doesnt make it any less important.