Support Scaling and duo lanes discussion

First Riot Post
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OneDragonArmy

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman Fizz View Post
I think most people are so used to supports getting almost no gold for items that they're having trouble imagining how strong they can be when they actually do have items built. I'm playing on PBE a lot and the role feels so much more satisfying there that I can barely stand to play support how it is right now anymore. I'm really happy with the direction you're going with the changes, it's something people are going to have to actually feel in-game to fully understand because the changes are just that huge. It feels like I'm playing a totally different game.

The main thing I want to emphasize is that in-game it feels so different supporting in PBE that I can barely even compare it to supporting on Live.
This This This^ The PBE spoiled me to the point I wasn't playing League at all for a few days because of how much I enjoyed the changes but wanted to play on Live.


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Hellioning

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think this is a focus I disagree on - and not because I don't think it's cool (I'm a counter-meta hipster in Krosmaster right now, heh) but I think because in team games, clear functions and tradeoffs makes a healthier PvP experience with strengths, weaknesses and composition choices. To me, for the kind of game League is, I think has more value that higher item variety or expressions within a single character.

Maybe if redoing from the ground-up, we could better optimize this for less tradeoffs.
That's not a terrible idea, but it does run into some other issues; for example, people who want to play ap soraka/sona/janna are annoyed because they can't, but midlanes can go in the support role. There's also the issue of 'I play this game to win, and am willing to change champions at the drop of a pin to do so' vs 'I play this game to have fun, and I find this champion really fun, but they aren't good in enough situations to warrant picking them all the time'.


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LVNsNASmurf

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I generally agree with your analysis points here - and if the gap is huge, we can revisit numerically - super open to it. I disagree with your critique of supports objectively as a "fun" class (because engineering gameplay fun is couched in understanding that there's a broad set of expectations and differences).

I think there are people who feel really differently about supports than you do, though. We've already made hard calls on dedicated healers, I'm not willing to go all the way to supports - I think they can change the context of fights and things like shields can provide windows of harass/engage, saftey for a vulnerable character like Ashe to make plays, and otherwise drive action. In lane, supports currently drive MOST of the action - even traditional support.
Thank you for the reply. I really hope supports aren't losing out on what precious utility they have. As for a "fun" class, I have to disagree. Pretty much any two champions will contribute more to winning the game than one champion + a support. The support offers no mechanic which uniquely allows them to advance towards a win condition. To refer to TF2, (as you are familiar) the Medic class has access to Ubercharge. This is unique. In this situation, one medic + one demo is much better at advancing the game to a win condition than any 5 demos/ soldiers / heavies.

To change back to LoL, our game is about destroying towers, and then, the nexus. There is nothing really that any support brings which helps this in any way. All supports can do is influence fights in a minor way, with their utility and minor damage. They may unleash a large CC, which would be a brilliant example of such a unique mechanic... if it were Unique.

Morello, what you need to do is find a unique mechanic that aids the winning of games, and implement it on all support class characters. It would be even better if you could find multiple ones. I am unable to come up with one, as the only things that win games are damage to towers, and the ability to remove defending champions as obstacles, usually through damage.


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Duffman316

Senior Member

11-21-2013

after that wonderful job you did on buffying yi for high elo, i don't have much confidence in your ability to balance much else


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AmbushIntheDark

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVNsNASmurf View Post
Morello, what you need to do is find a unique mechanic that aids the winning of games, and implement it on all support class characters. It would be even better if you could find multiple ones. I am unable to come up with one, as the only things that win games are damage to towers, and the ability to remove defending champions as obstacles, usually through damage.
Vision and Mobility. There is a reason why supports have been buying wards all this time.


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WindLord7070

Senior Member

11-21-2013

id really like some feed back on this i posted it earlier but got ignored

are supports going to need to build a ton of ap to get the utility they have right now? i cant see them being able to get that much ap at all since 2 item slots are used for wards 1 slot for the gold item but even thats only 50 ap so 3 slots and thats 50 ap and then one slot for boots which doenst matter whicih leaves supports with 2 slots to build death cap and like mejias for max ap

so what does riot think aobut adding a slot that is used for only consumes? this also lets other roles buy wards when they are item blocked


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Kitty Caitlyn

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Why is Thresh still untouched? Theres no reasonable explanation as to why the strongest support in the game has no nerfs at all


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Deathnor

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think this is a focus I disagree on - and not because I don't think it's cool (I'm a counter-meta hipster in Krosmaster right now, heh) but I think because in team games, clear functions and tradeoffs makes a healthier PvP experience with strengths, weaknesses and composition choices. To me, for the kind of game League is, I think has more value that higher item variety or expressions within a single character.

Maybe if redoing from the ground-up, we could better optimize this for less tradeoffs.
but didnt supports that went mid already have sizable trade offs? super sub par roam. or loss of quite a lot of damage for the utility they brought. janna only has 2 damage skills.

last LCS split if velocity hadnt played janna and every other lane to perfection the whole comp falls apart and they dont win or get into the LCS. you have traded a sizable portion of what your teams potential damage is for utility.


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Rozzeta

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Support has been an early game champion who faded into the background later in the game, yet they now have base utility lowered which hurts their early game, in exchange for ap ratios.

They need to build quite a bit of AP to recover their base values, but then you are not buing most other suppports needs like defenses or items with actives (Twin shadows only).

You are stating a support is not a AP mage, but want them to build like one in order to get their uutility ratios going, (unless you're a support tank, whom got the best out of these changes), all while also considering supports won't have the income of an AP mage.


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Hidden Dragon

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindLord7070 View Post
id really like some feed back on this i posted it earlier but got ignored

are supports going to need to build a ton of ap to get the utility they have right now? i cant see them being able to get that much ap at all since 2 item slots are used for wards 1 slot for the gold item but even thats only 50 ap so 3 slots and thats 50 ap and then one slot for boots which doenst matter whicih leaves supports with 2 slots to build death cap and like mejias for max ap

so what does riot think aobut adding a slot that is used for only consumes? this also lets other roles buy wards when they are item blocked
From Reddit (someone did the math):

Quote:
Janna needs 200ap to get her old zephyr movement speed buff back.
Janna needs ~140ap to get her old slow value back on zephyr.
Lulu needs 167ap to let pix do the same damage as before.
Sona needs 100ap to get the same movement speed bonus on celerity.
Soraka got the passive they removed from Mikael's Crucible which was deemed as choosing between 2 bads, either healing more when a target is lower health, or healing less when he's at higher health.
Soraka needs 600ap to shred the same magic resist as she did before.
Soraka's ally needs to be at >33% life or less to heal just as much with Astral blessing.
Soraka's allies need to be at >58% life (Not considering AP scaling) to have the same amount healed from her wish.