Support Scaling and duo lanes discussion

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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
26 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatrix View Post
I have always been the sort of player that thinks you should be able to do diverse things on a character even if they're a bit out of the norm. I think Shurelia even mentioned a long time ago when she was making Soraka changes that if people wanted a more battle unicorn Soraka playstyle, then they could build it. The same goes for all the AP Jannas and AP Sonas and other DPS-y builds. You usually give up survivability or other stats to have your spells sting a little, and you still have your utility.

I'm not saying that damage is THE BEST THING EVER, but I feel that if a player wishes to build this way to at least be a LITTLE threatening damage-wise then they should be able to. These changes feel like they're taking away the ability to make that choice, which is what I don't like. Diversity is pretty awesome, and we occasionally see players break away from the norm with some pretty cool diverse, unique builds. I would hate to see this aspect taken away from support.
I think this is a focus I disagree on - and not because I don't think it's cool (I'm a counter-meta hipster in Krosmaster right now, heh) but I think because in team games, clear functions and tradeoffs makes a healthier PvP experience with strengths, weaknesses and composition choices. To me, for the kind of game League is, I think has more value that higher item variety or expressions within a single character. This is not a popular view because for an individual experience this is more fun. For an ecosystem, it can lead to erosion and disengagement from weak competitive frameworks and tradeoffs.

Maybe if redoing from the ground-up, we could better optimize this for less tradeoffs.


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Fisherman Fizz

Senior Member

11-21-2013

I think most people are so used to supports getting almost no gold for items that they're having trouble imagining how strong they can be when they actually do have items built. I'm playing on PBE a lot and the role feels so much more satisfying there that I can barely stand to play support how it is right now anymore. I'm really happy with the direction you're going with the changes, it's something people are going to have to actually feel in-game to fully understand because the changes are just that huge. It feels like I'm playing a totally different game.

The main thing I want to emphasize is that in-game it feels so different supporting in PBE that I can barely even compare it to supporting on Live.


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AmbushIntheDark

Senior Member

11-21-2013

I still dont understand why these changes are needed in the first place. The support role right now (imo) is in the best position it has EVER been in. Sure theres a couple supports no one plays but overall the acceptable pool of support champions has never been bigger. The changes at the begining of season 3 were just what the role needed and now youre trying to change up the role again because....? What are you trying to turn the role into? Not a damage dealer because you've said that you dont want supports to do damage. Not a tank because thats already a thing that roles like jungler or top and fulfill considerably better. Until now support has been a role that focuses on vision and map control, but apparently thats not good either because some idiots in Bronze/Silver dont recognize how impactful vision is. Whats left? You've nerfed people like Raka Taric and Sona for being aura-bots. When you give supports too much utility you get permaban status like Thresh and Blitz.


Even now we already have different styles of supports. You got your tanky intiators with leona,ali,taric thresh and blitz. Your heavy disengage with Sona, Lulu, Janna and Nami. Your poke/damage heavy champs with Zyra, Annie and Lux.

You keep saying that support doesnt feel satisfying. Its because those people arnt support players. Words cant describe how boring and stupid it feels to play ADC, but that doesnt make the role as a whole flawed in some way, it means that it isnt a role I'm going to play.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
27 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidgolem View Post
I've said it once, and I'll probably end up saying it a few more times before everything is through:

It's really an issue that's been ongoing for several years - AP Mage Mids have too much utility.

From a practical perspective there isn't actually a reason for Burst Mage X to have CC of any description - their target dies. The end. Hardest CC. But...they do. And that's where the trouble comes in.

"But Veeg!" the brass AP Main cries, "If I don't have a CC a warmog bruiser is going to 1v1 me to death!" to which I can only say: Tough. Game hasn't been balanced for 1v1, like, ever. God forbid the guy that's sunk several thousand gold into stats explicitly to stop being one-comboed doesn't get one-comboed.

Furthermore, when you get right into it, with the state of supports - both in S3 and in the pending state of S4 - there isn't a reason to run a lot of the classical options so long as Burst Mage X has utility on tap. What's the point in taking the guy that stuns twice and doesn't offer a lot else when you can take Burst Man, stun once, and kill/cripple your target/multiple targets in the same attack?

'course this opens up several other cans of worms, but isn't that what preseason is for?
I tend to agree with this weakness of what we've released here more than any. And as someone who plays Anivia, I still look at the numbers when I use her and go "realllllly?" That doesn't even speak to Orianna


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Naonical

Senior Member

11-21-2013

As a support main I must say I'm not liking these changes. After testing them on PBE I already have decided to drop my main sup role I use and will be going for a utility mage to fill the support roll. What my normal support did in S3, my utility mage can now do better in S4. Who cares if I lose heal? I can full nuke down an ADC and blow half the HP of a support off with Annie for example, while STILL maintaining a hard CC and later being extremely viable to my team in fights.

I can also go 1v1 later on unlike a support nami for example, who struggles to 1v1 someone and hold her own while most likely having to back down and CC them to escape.

Support to me atm with the traditional supports just seems completely obsolete. There was nothing to really compensate them for giving up their ratios besides getting a bit more gold.

To me it seems like the roll has been entirely removed in a way. Reminds me of Kayle... a character labeled as a sup, who found a new meaning, but then got beaten with a nerf bat so hard you barely see her now. I feel this is what will happen with the traditional supports and these guys won't see play.

Also supports are the most unappreciated people on the team, and it's a roll many hate to play. I think what annoys me the most is no matter how good you are as a support, you can't climb the LP ladder by just playing support. I hate that other rolls can climb so much easier ( I understand being well rounded, but to me it's like supports are being punished all around. )

I personally believe we should be able to climb the LP ladder based on our performance due to assists and skill plays. Our traditional way of the rank system is extremely outdated. If one person fails the entire team is punished. That system needs to be reviewed and calculated like how the LoLSkill site has theirs set up.

This might actually influence people to want to play sups as well instead of hard nuking mages bot lane.


1. Make an actual beneficial LP system that shows YOUR actual skill, not the teams as a whole. Makes no sense when you are solo queing to have your performance judged on a full scale. If I wanted that I would 5V5 que.

2. Rework the support rolls, atm they took more nerfs without being given compensation for their utility. Adding a bit more gold isn't compensation, we managed in S3 without having these "buffs"

3. Rework the hard nuking CC mages that are living in bottom lane now. Feels like I see a fiddle or annie 1:4 games each time now.


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OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

I actually feel really bad about Soraka's history; I've been a giant weiner with pulling the trigger on this, and Soraka players, as mad as I KNOW a reowork will make them, deserve a good kit.

I think at this point you've nerfed her into the ground so hard, even the passive heal players will prefer a rework.

Here's a suggestion: remove healing from Soraka's kit entirely. Soraka + healing makes you Riot guys froth at the mouth and do stupid **** to her; it's better if her healing identity is removed. As long as she has healing, you guys will always be biased against her, even if its unjustified.


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Hidden Dragon

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

NerfMasterSuckTown IN DA HOUSE!

Get your pitchforks & torches ready boys, we got work to do.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
28 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman Fizz View Post
I think most people are so used to supports getting almost no gold for items that they're having trouble imagining how strong they can be when they actually do have items built. I'm playing on PBE a lot and the role feels so much more satisfying there that I can barely stand to play support how it is right now anymore. I'm really happy with the direction you're going with the changes, it's something people are going to have to actually feel in-game to fully understand because the changes are just that huge. It feels like I'm playing a totally different game.

The main thing I want to emphasize is that in-game it feels so different supporting in PBE that I can barely even compare it to supporting on Live.
We had a similar reaction internally. THIS IS GOING TO BE HORRI - oh wow. I can do stuff. Oh damn.

Not conclusive, but our testing has helped us get to the initial release - with pros, external vendors, gameplay analysts and PBE. It's literally the most testing we can do before live because we agree there's a lot happening here!


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Furi Kuri

Member

11-21-2013

I already see you nerfing my main Annie mid cause her support is too strong.


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Hamady3

Senior Member

11-21-2013

posted on page 6 but it got ignored, reposting


Here's a few points i want to bring up:


- Support is a generally hated role because the support players get to do no damage
- Most support champions dont have any significance in teamfights. You never see people yell out " Focus on soraka to prevent her from giving armor buffs " Or " Focus On Leona so that her allies wouldnt get to proc her passive "



So why not change support champions to get them to do alot of damage, but only through supporting their allies? Nami and Janna are great examples, and they're one of the 'more fun' supports for that reason. You can replace Leona's passive with her Q ( aa Stun ) and add something like ( sunburn ) to replace her Q, where all physical damage your allies do to the champion is increased by 15% - 20%

Soraka for example can get an effect similar to banshee's veil on her E. giving an Ally mana also places a shield that reflects 50% of the next 100/200/300/400/500 ( 0.5 Ap) damage back to the dealer of the damage. That way the soraka players gets to feel a bit pleased when the enemy caitlyn with 50 hp ults his allied Heimerdinger, and uses his shield on heimer to watch caytlin suicide


There's plenty of other options too that can have other options to solve their problem. Look at thresh, he's one of the best supports because he has chain CC, but his most notable point is his lantern. it's a totally unique ability. Support champions should be like that, they should have something UNIQUE TO THEM that no other 'mage' has. You gave thresh a lantern, and people loved it. He's considered one of the most fun supports too. Make more creative support champions. Maybe a new support champion would be able to create a movable wall. As in he places a wall and can recast the ability to make it turn and slide. Or maybe even a champion that can place 'trap like' plates on the ground, and if an ally steps on it he gains a movement speed boost, and they would last for 3 minutes, similarly to how nidalee's traps work.