Support Scaling and duo lanes discussion

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Hellioning

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think quite a bit of this can be caught in a patch cycle if it's not really nuanced. It's a top-line issue for the game health guys.
Yeah, but I think a lot of people would say 'everyone is buying this particular item because it's so superior to the alternatives' is also a top line issue for the game health, and that took you far too long to fix.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
24 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by OJ191 View Post
You could try reworking her instead of making everyone who ever played her in S1 cringe every time we see her name in patch notes.

We're not allowed to heal

We're not allowed to mana battery

We're not allowed to debuff

We're not allowed to do damage (I don't even know why you nerfed her damage this patch, but you did).

So WTF are us soraka players actually supposed to do then?


And before anyone lolkings me, I use "soraka player" loosely, I played her back in S1 when she was actually a healer, her heals right now may as well be shields with how long they stick except they're also affected by anti-heal...



PS: I'm a mage main, and I have to say nerfing damage and damage ratios of "supports" is not the way to ensure they don't get pushed out of lane by utility mages, you just niche them even harder except it's a niche nobody finds useful for the vast majority of cases (imo lulu will be one of the few who survive this patch).



Also the manaless soul-passive harass on thresh gets kinda annoying after a while but that's another issue entirely.
For what it's worth, she's next on my priority list (non-art list - it's a pretty complex matrix).

I actually feel really bad about Soraka's history; I've been a giant weiner with pulling the trigger on this, and Soraka players, as mad as I KNOW a reowork will make them, deserve a good kit.


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Beatrix

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

I have always been the sort of player that thinks you should be able to do diverse things on a character even if they're a bit out of the norm. I think Shurelia even mentioned a long time ago when she was making Soraka changes that if people wanted a more battle unicorn Soraka playstyle, then they could build it. The same goes for all the AP Jannas and AP Sonas and other DPS-y builds. You usually give up survivability or other stats to have your spells sting a little, and you still have your utility.

I'm not saying that damage is THE BEST THING EVER, but I feel that if a player wishes to build this way to at least be a LITTLE threatening damage-wise then they should be able to. These changes feel like they're taking away the ability to make that choice, which is what I don't like. Diversity is pretty awesome, and we occasionally see players break away from the norm with some pretty cool diverse, unique builds. I would hate to see this aspect taken away from support.


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WindLord7070

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia View Post
I honestly think this kind of change going with the other tweaks may have made things better received. Simply because this means you can still do as much damage (or more) but you have to be strategic about it.

Some ones I can think of off the top of my head:
Enemies that are "Whimsyed" take [x] more damage from glitterlance
Enemies airborn during howling gale, take [x] more damage from zephyr
Cresscendo amplifies Sona's next spell power cord by [x]
After hitting an enemy with aqua prison, nami's auto attacks do [x] amount of AP.

I just can see these changes as a lot more interesting, because they encourage supports to be actively engaged in the game with their utility.
i tihnk this is a cool idea but i tihnk the point riot is trying to make is that supports should not be doing damage at all they should always be with some who can do damage and be there supporting them letting them do more damage


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
25 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellioning View Post
Yeah, but I think a lot of people would say 'everyone is buying this particular item because it's so superior to the alternatives' is also a top line issue for the game health, and that took you far too long to fix.
I think we were too slow there, but there were additional nuanced debates on if that was the right direction (higher HP games lead to more play in fights was a core counter argument). Our mental model of HP functions was a little weaker too - where our mental model of the support direction is more solidified.

In this, we know what bridge is too far for supports being too weak.


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AmbushIntheDark

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
For what it's worth, she's next on my priority list (non-art list - it's a pretty complex matrix).

I actually feel really bad about Soraka's history; I've been a giant weiner with pulling the trigger on this, and Soraka players, as mad as I KNOW a reowork will make them, deserve a good kit.
Please stop trying to help us. Go help another role, I hear top has only a handful of actually viable champs maybe you can go make that smaller.


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ChroniclerC

Member

11-21-2013

My main concern with the support champ [s]nerfs[/s] changes is that you're pigeonholing them into support as their only option. Zyra and Nidale can still go mid; Fiddlez can still jungle; Thresh can still [s]ADC[/s] Marksman. But by taking away potential raw power and placing their strength purely in "support" stuff, we lose access to builds outside the support role. I understand that you want to somehow let Supports shine over Mages, but what about the people who wanted to play these champs ~as~ mages. I dunno, hard to articulate it correctly here, but a lot of these changes "feel" bad when "feel" seems to be what you're aiming to improve. And it "feels" like you're taking damage away from what you deem to be utility mages (in exchange for some pretty pitiful buff ratios), but not taking utility away from damage mages.


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TheMirai

Member

11-21-2013

Morello, a question, and feel free to say it's not so simple, but - is the patch undertuned for supports by design to make the game less shattered on the next patch? Or was that just how the cookie crumbled this time and nothing was really 'planned' other than making the champions 'better' to the best of your abilities?


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Sophitia

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmbushIntheDark View Post
Please stop trying to help us. Go help another role, I hear top has only a handful of actually viable champs maybe you can go make that smaller.
To be honest though, Soraka does need help. She's in an awful state right now.


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

11-21-2013

I've said it once, and I'll probably end up saying it a few more times before everything is through:

It's really an issue that's been ongoing for several years - AP Mage Mids have too much utility.

From a practical perspective there isn't actually a reason for Burst Mage X to have CC of any description - their target dies. The end. Hardest CC. But...they do. And that's where the trouble comes in.

"But Veeg!" the brass AP Main cries, "If I don't have a CC a warmog bruiser is going to 1v1 me to death!" to which I can only say: Tough. Game hasn't been balanced for 1v1, like, ever. God forbid the guy that's sunk several thousand gold into stats explicitly to stop being one-comboed doesn't get one-comboed.

Furthermore, when you get right into it, with the state of supports - both in S3 and in the pending state of S4 - there isn't a reason to run a lot of the classical options so long as Burst Mage X has utility on tap. What's the point in taking the guy that stuns twice and doesn't offer a lot else when you can take Burst Man, stun once, and kill/cripple your target/multiple targets in the same attack?

'course this opens up several other cans of worms, but isn't that what preseason is for?