Support Scaling and duo lanes discussion

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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
22 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mynt View Post
I'll expound on my theories about Tarted Ally Spells:

There are two kinds of these spells--those which lend themselves to range reductions, and those which fundamentally must remain long range in order to be usable.

Examples of potential short range spells:
Soraka's Heal
Nidalee's Heal + auto-attack enhancer
Nami's Auto-attack enhancer
Janna's Shield

Examples of mandatory long range spells:
Nami's Heal, because it's also a nuke
Taric's Heal, because he's melee
Sona's Auras, because they are AoE

The trick is to manage the mana costs of long range spells, making that the gate to early game power. Lower range spells can be stronger, or more mana efficient because their gate is the durability it takes to use their spells in increasingly dire situations. This is how to make characters like Soraka feel powerful for building durability--buff her heal power, reduce its range so that her having stats indirectly allows her to use it better.

It's only an idea, and I'm merely a mortal. But it's something I've been chewing on for 5 years now. A support class that is even melee would still be farther behind the line of engagement than the long ranged carry they are supporting.
Yeah - I've chomped on this a lot too because I think Priest play patterns have set an unsustainable healing expectation for PvP games. I'm trying to think of a better one (I have a melee one loosely based on a Fire Sacrier from Wakfu I'm really intrerested in testing...).


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falkenjeff

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Oh, you are posting here now? And didn't sticky it?

I just wanted to let you know that I love you for nerfing traditional supports. I am going to take my Evelynn/Warwick/Tryndamere/Jinx bot-lane and pub-stomp anyone who picks a traditional support (with the exception of Leona and Thresh).

Low ELO will be dominated by this strategy, and picking traditional supports will be a noob trap.

Oh, you went back to buy an item? Well my "support Jinx" bought her BF sword, so thanks for the free tower Janna.

Oh, I dodged your crowd control? Enjoy being nuked to death by my Evelynn.

I'm taking whoever I want bot-lane, and I will not find "abuse cases" for traditional supports. In low ELO there won't be any. That Akali or Ryze is going to kill you once early-game (you're already nerfed 100% for sure early-game because you need 200 AP to have your old utility), and snowball after that.


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Hellioning

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This actually makes me happy, as odd as that sounds. Let me explain what I mean.

I'm really not worried about the tactical execution because is transient and temporary; the team will fix it if it's off and we're all really aligned on the direction here - to me, I guess, that's an easily-solvable problem.
The complaints of support players make Morello happy! I knew it!

Seriously though, how 'transient and temporary' are we talking here? Are we talking about 'if they're weak, we buff them next patch' or 'League of Warmogs' here?


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LoveSparkle

Senior Member

11-21-2013

And you'll never answer any thoughtful post of mine ever, because my Janna thread absolutely destroyed you with about negative 600 downvotes in 3 posts of yours.

I get it, you have a grudge, you don't understand Janna, and you aren't really live balance but just a face.

It's cool.

--

But pass this on: I have no reason to play Janna in season 4 right now. None. But hey, it's okay, I already own her Forecast skin, so tell WizardCrab it's fine.


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Sophitia

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We have a few ideas like this on the rework. As you can imagine, it's a pretty challenging one
I honestly think this kind of change going with the other tweaks may have made things better received. Simply because this means you can still do as much damage (or more) but you have to be strategic about it.

Some ones I can think of off the top of my head:
Enemies that are "Whimsyed" take [x] more damage from glitterlance
Enemies airborn during howling gale, take [x] more damage from zephyr
Cresscendo amplifies Sona's next spell power cord by [x]
After hitting an enemy with aqua prison, nami's auto attacks do [x] amount of AP.

I just can see these changes as a lot more interesting, because they encourage supports to be actively engaged in the game with their utility.


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OneDragonArmy

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveSparkle View Post
I'm the type of person who got gold, higher than morello did... by playing Janna.

So you can try again.

Downvoted again: this is so enraging. At least let me know who downvoted this. I have a 70% winrate on Janna.
While I must eat my words concerning my assumption about your playstyle, the rest of your post is not really related. I would guess you're being downvoted because your post is nonsensical. Wasn't me though.


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Edzter

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

I think there are people who feel really differently about supports than you do, though.

i used to play this game for like 6 hours a day, then i was forced to support every match or get reported

now i barely play 1-2 games a day untill the role-ques arrive

you said yourself, and everybody knows that supports are ward *****es

who finds being a ***** fun? thats why people go nid supports and build AP

the solution of 'go support but try something else' doesnt help in yoloque where people scream at you even if you go garen support even though you are legitametly only buying boots and wards and i still find no fun in that because all i do is run around and ward and get killed and screamed at when i try to ward baron

i want to play bruisers, assasins and mages why do i have to play a healer?
or i want to play nocturne because i love him, why do i have to go into the jungle with him? (derailing here but still)

at this point i played supports so much im better at them than my favorite classes, then i am forced to support just because im better at it than other people, and yet i find no fun in that


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-21-2013
23 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellioning View Post
The complaints of support players make Morello happy! I knew it!

Seriously though, how 'transient and temporary' are we talking here? Are we talking about 'if they're weak, we buff them next patch' or 'League of Warmogs' here?
I think quite a bit of this can be caught in a patch cycle if it's not really nuanced. It's a top-line issue for the game health guys.


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OJ191

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I generally agree with your analysis points here - and if the gap is huge, we can revisit numerically - super open to it. I disagree with your critique of supports objectively as a "fun" class (because engineering gameplay fun is couched in understanding that there's a broad set of expectations and differences).

I think there are people who feel really differently about supports than you do, though. We've already made hard calls on dedicated healers, I'm not willing to go all the way to supports - I think they can change the context of fights and things like shields can provide windows of harass/engage, saftey for a vulnerable character like Ashe to make plays, and otherwise drive action. In lane, supports currently drive MOST of the action - even traditional support.
I think you guys at riot just need to deal with the fact that ever since you killed off any hope of a dedicated healer or buffer/debuffer archetype (it all revolves around CC for the most part with buffs/debuffs/heals/shields being exceedingly secondary nowadays) "supports" are just utility mages leaning more towards the utility than the damage. This does not mean they should not be allowed to do damage, especially not with how much CC many utility mages have these days. This also does not mean utility mages need a nerf.

Right now you are basically forcing supports to stack AP to be just as good as they were before utility-wise while nerfing their potential for damage. So we can stack AP and do c rap damage or stack tanky+cdr and still do c rap damage but with c rap utility as well.


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Samflash3

Senior Member

11-21-2013

I think i'm mostly okay with the changes. If I can afford an Iceborn gauntlet, tear and mejai as Sona, then I can live with it.