"Hey Sona what do you think of the upcoming support changes?"

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Priamos

Senior Member

11-20-2013

I'm just afraid you're going to leave Janna in this gutted state and leave her there for a year. She's already really weak in competitive, but we were fine with that. Now she's just weak everywhere.

We're all just super concerned that Janna/Sona/Lulu are getting nerfed hard, while Annie, who is strong, is getting no nerfs at all.


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Foxbyte

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jatt View Post
Yeah I can sympathize with your concern. I know a lot of supports were very good in the past at getting gold by sneaking farm and having lower ward control in the early game. I think with the amount of changes done to supports this pre-season getting the tuning 100% right on the first pass is a bit of a dream. If I had to guess there's going to be many tweaks in the future to the way supports are tuned to scale utility, but the direction will most likely remain the same. That's what the preseason is for after all.
Let me tell you, you're seriously erring too much on the side of caution.

Also, you assume we haven't played it.

Guess what, a good number of us have PBE accounts and yes, we HAVE played it, and we're still complaining.

Season 4 is make-or-break for you guys, and I'm certainly not confident so far.


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mi ramfan

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jatt View Post
Yeah I can sympathize with your concern. I know a lot of supports were very good in the past at getting gold by sneaking farm and having lower ward control in the early game. I think with the amount of changes done to supports this pre-season getting the tuning 100% right on the first pass is a bit of a dream. If I had to guess there's going to be many tweaks in the future to the way supports are tuned to scale utility, but the direction will most likely remain the same. That's what the preseason is for after all.
Let's make a deal Jatt.

We promise as a collective that we will open our minds to these changes once you show us ONE CHANGE you made that expands the role of traditional supports in the meta instead of marginalizing them. No, Annie, Zyra, Orianna, and Lissandra do NOT count as a traditional supports. We want to know that you have a commitment to making the maximum number of champions viable in bot lane and that you will ensure that traditional supports like Janna, Soraka, Sona, Taric, Alistar, Lulu, and Nami will still have a place in the metagame. That means prompt buffs if the current changes don't work out or leave them in the dust behind utility mages.

If you (or a live designer) can make that commitment to us, you'd earn a lot more leeway with the community instantly.


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Xhandel

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Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jatt View Post
I encourage you all to keep an open mind.
an open mind doesnt makes us win games, damage and cc does


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jatt View Post
I'm not saying that support Annie and support Zyra or support Lux who scale like traditional mages aren't going to be effective bot lane, I'm saying that traditional supports have multiple ways of scaling that don't have to include ability power and they are equally as strong. It's going to be a trade-off.
The thing is, support champions already don't scale as well with gold as mages. We know this to be the case because people aren't sending Sona, Janna, and Soraka mid with any regularity. Some people are fond of taking them there but it's not exactly competitively viable.

So when you nerf their early game and nerf their ratios, all you've done is caused them to scale even less well with gold than utility mages, which means utility mages will push them out of the game. What's the point of healing my ally for 300 when I could nuke the enemy team for 400 each? What's the point of donating a nice .7 shield to my ADC when Lux can shield the entire team for .7? Are we going to see the utility mages nuked from orbit so they don't dominate the support role? Because that's what's going to have to happen to bring the traditional supports back after these nerfs, unless you re-buff them so they scale at least as well with gold.

I'm keeping an open mind but I'm extremely wary of these changes.


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UnskilIed Player

Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jatt View Post
I think you guys are missing the intent of the support changes, where you see AP ratio reductions and you immediately think the champion is nerfed. Take Sona for example, AP ratio reductions on her Q, and also a big hit to her Ult taking it from 0.8 to 0.5

We need to get something clear: AP is not the only way to scale a champion with gold Sona is not a mage, she is a support. She doesn't need a 0.8 AP ratio on her ultimate to be effective.

But Jatt, what am I going to do with this gold if I can't scale Sona with AP like a mage?
- Sona scales remarkably well with CDR and mana regen. The base values on her abilities are high, and the aura's she provides have ridiculous gold value. Additionally, if you can cycle your spells faster you get substantially more power chords which can make you a beast in teamfights. Also, since you're building CDR you may as well make yourself a little bit tanky. This way when a DFG Ahri comes at you, you might actually have a chance of living for more than .5 seconds.


I'm not saying that support Annie and support Zyra or support Lux who scale like traditional mages aren't going to be effective bot lane, I'm saying that traditional supports have multiple ways of scaling that don't have to include ability power and they are equally as strong. It's going to be a trade-off.

Support Annie and Support Fiddle are going to be better than before. They have AP ratios, they have more gold, they're going to do more damage. Sona and Soraka also have more gold. They get to be tankier, they get to have more CDR, and they get to have a more powerful impact thanks to their increased team utility.

I encourage you all to keep an open mind.
Except that one of Sona's defining aspects is her power when played offensively, and that power comes largely from her scaling. It isn't uncommon to see Sona's itemize with support items and an offensive ap item that gives utility.


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BRTHEBEST

Senior Member

11-20-2013

I will say- I like the Taric and Leona changes. Especially with Taric, I always hated building any AP on him just to give him a little damage.


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CataclysmCrash

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BACKSTABUUU View Post
Thresh was the best support in the game for literally the entire season.

He's still one of the best now, maybe is still the best.

What in the ****ing hell are you talking about?
I think the complaints are AP support centric rather than CC tank support centric because they still fill a niche.

Especially God damn Thresh, whose niche is amazing single target disengage and the thing that keeps him on the ban list: his god like 2 man engage.


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Zelnorack

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Can we just give sona back her ratios?

Sona mid was one of the funnest things there was. Very high risk because squishiest champ in the GAME, very high reward.

Now? Now Sona might never see the light of day again. One of my favorite supports and you gimp her because a few people liked Sona mid, or because you gave supports more gold and were all like "aww hell naw. You aint allowed to have more gold without punishment.". Thats not right.

Know whats funny? Junglers are gonna build one of the certain gold items. So they can tax a lane and not get complained at. Thats good. They didnt get touched. Thats injustice.

Supports are only as good as their lane partner. Unless fiddle or Annie. Then they just play normal with Kages. They can get a double easy enough once they hit 6. I'm almost certain that those 2 are mostly the ONLY supports we will see.


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Kri

Senior Member

11-20-2013

How much do you want to bet Fiddle and Annie get **** on hard with nerfs because they were used as supports. Look at Zyra, they are already gutting her bit by bit to make her useless as a mid laner. Inb4 Annie's passive is replaced.