"Hey Sona what do you think of the upcoming support changes?"

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Dryad Soraka

Senior Member

11-20-2013

it's k for support annie to be broken but traditional supports even being able to try? hah, nope!


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FailTsukkomi

Senior Member

11-20-2013

the problem is if you're going to play tanky + cdr you'd just play thresh or blitz or leona.

tanky + cdr sona/soraka is **** compared to tanky + cdr thresh/ali/leona/ali because their whole advantage over those 4 was their ability to poke or heal well (which scale off AP), not cc moves that scale off cdr.

but if you build them ap they're **** compared to annie/fid/zyra now.


so they're basically outclassed no matter what.


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SlumlordThanatos

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jatt View Post
I think you guys are missing the intent of the support changes, where you see AP ratio reductions and you immediately think the champion is nerfed. Take Sona for example, AP ratio reductions on her Q, and also a big hit to her Ult taking it from 0.8 to 0.5

We need to get something clear: AP is not the only way to scale a champion with gold Sona is not a mage, she is a support. She doesn't need a 0.8 AP ratio on her ultimate to be effective.

But Jatt, what am I going to do with this gold if I can't scale Sona with AP like a mage?
- Sona scales remarkably well with CDR and mana regen. The base values on her abilities are high, and the aura's she provides have ridiculous gold value. Additionally, if you can cycle your spells faster you get substantially more power chords which can make you a beast in teamfights. Also, since you're building CDR you may as well make yourself a little bit tanky. This way when a DFG Ahri comes at you, you might actually have a chance of living for more than .5 seconds.


I'm not saying that support Annie and support Zyra or support Lux who scale like traditional mages aren't going to be effective bot lane, I'm saying that traditional supports have multiple ways of scaling that don't have to include ability power and they are equally as strong. It's going to be a trade-off.

Support Annie and Support Fiddle are going to be better than before. They have AP ratios, they have more gold, they're going to do more damage. Sona and Soraka also have more gold. They get to be tankier, they get to have more CDR, and they get to have a more powerful impact thanks to their increased team utility.

I encourage you all to keep an open mind.
But you're still missing the point of our complaints.

This change means that Sona can play support, AND ONLY SUPPORT. Same goes with Janna.

I'm going to miss my mid or top lane Janna because her already sub-par damage has been further taken away.


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Best Ahri Earth

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Irelia View Post
Yes, yes, yes, yes and um. YES.

Think of this as a move more towards the DotA 2 supports, who obviously don't scale off of items AT ALL. I'm a support main. I couldn't give the slightest shit what the ratios on my skills are, because I'm never going to have even remotely close to the same items as my teammates. Instead, I focus on skillshots, shotcalling, lane manipulation, and vision control. I get that everyone wants to be able to deal over 9000 damage from every role, but that simply isn't possible if there are only 3 lanes worth of cs.

Jatt please post here more, you're a breath of fresh air when it comes to red posts.

Also, I realize this thread wasn't actually serious to begin with, but the amount of QQ over support ratios just astounds me when scaling is the very last thing I could possibly care about on my support champions.
You're speaking as if it's still season 3. Wake up. Supports have items now. Supports can't ward as much anymore. Where are you going to spend your gold?? Guess YOU won't be spending it, but I'll be buying items like my teammates are.


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Fuzen kuden

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jatt View Post
I think you guys are missing the intent of the support changes, where you see AP ratio reductions and you immediately think the champion is nerfed. Take Sona for example, AP ratio reductions on her Q, and also a big hit to her Ult taking it from 0.8 to 0.5

We need to get something clear: AP is not the only way to scale a champion with gold Sona is not a mage, she is a support. She doesn't need a 0.8 AP ratio on her ultimate to be effective.

But Jatt, what am I going to do with this gold if I can't scale Sona with AP like a mage?
- Sona scales remarkably well with CDR and mana regen. The base values on her abilities are high, and the aura's she provides have ridiculous gold value. Additionally, if you can cycle your spells faster you get substantially more power chords which can make you a beast in teamfights. Also, since you're building CDR you may as well make yourself a little bit tanky. This way when a DFG Ahri comes at you, you might actually have a chance of living for more than .5 seconds.


I'm not saying that support Annie and support Zyra or support Lux who scale like traditional mages aren't going to be effective bot lane, I'm saying that traditional supports have multiple ways of scaling that don't have to include ability power and they are equally as strong. It's going to be a trade-off.

Support Annie and Support Fiddle are going to be better than before. They have AP ratios, they have more gold, they're going to do more damage. Sona and Soraka also have more gold. They get to be tankier, they get to have more CDR, and they get to have a more powerful impact thanks to their increased team utility.

I encourage you all to keep an open mind.
yeah um all supports will be outclassed by there mid lane gone bot counter parts


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Maximum Graves

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Plainview View Post
Also I am truly amazed that the OP is an image that exists. I don't know why someone drew it, but god bless them.
http://cubehero.deviantart.com/art/L...ored-407310995

They appear to like Sona a lot and their other works are pretty great too
~~


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Auryiel

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Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jatt View Post
I think you guys are missing the intent of the support changes, where you see AP ratio reductions and you immediately think the champion is nerfed. Take Sona for example, AP ratio reductions on her Q, and also a big hit to her Ult taking it from 0.8 to 0.5

We need to get something clear: AP is not the only way to scale a champion with gold Sona is not a mage, she is a support. She doesn't need a 0.8 AP ratio on her ultimate to be effective.

But Jatt, what am I going to do with this gold if I can't scale Sona with AP like a mage?
- Sona scales remarkably well with CDR and mana regen. The base values on her abilities are high, and the aura's she provides have ridiculous gold value. Additionally, if you can cycle your spells faster you get substantially more power chords which can make you a beast in teamfights. Also, since you're building CDR you may as well make yourself a little bit tanky. This way when a DFG Ahri comes at you, you might actually have a chance of living for more than .5 seconds.


I'm not saying that support Annie and support Zyra or support Lux who scale like traditional mages aren't going to be effective bot lane, I'm saying that traditional supports have multiple ways of scaling that don't have to include ability power and they are equally as strong. It's going to be a trade-off.

Support Annie and Support Fiddle are going to be better than before. They have AP ratios, they have more gold, they're going to do more damage. Sona and Soraka also have more gold. They get to be tankier, they get to have more CDR, and they get to have a more powerful impact thanks to their increased team utility.

I encourage you all to keep an open mind.
Problem is, in anything but high elo games, you could actually get away with building more GP/10s. I'm already used to scaling with CDR when playing Sona. She had an advantage over supports like Annie because, like you said, she scales super well with CDR and CDR is cheaper than AP/Mpen. Now? Well she's kinda left behind.

Sure, these changes might be a lot better for higher level games, but you guys seem to forget that most of your player base is NOT plat +. The back lash is to be expected, imo.


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BACKSTABUUU

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Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dryad Soraka View Post
it's k for support annie to be broken but traditional supports even being able to try? hah, nope!
Thresh was the best support in the game for literally the entire season.

He's still one of the best now, maybe is still the best.

What in the ****ing hell are you talking about?


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Leo the yordle

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jatt View Post
Yeah I can sympathize with your concern. I know a lot of supports were very good in the past at getting gold by sneaking farm and having lower ward control in the early game. I think with the amount of changes done to supports this pre-season getting the tuning 100% right on the first pass is a bit of a dream. If I had to guess there's going to be many tweaks in the future to the way supports are tuned to scale utility, but the direction will most likely remain the same. That's what the preseason is for after all.
I'm of the opinion that all of the utility in the world won't save you from an AP 'support' Annie ultimate with stun attached.

Maybe that's just me >.>


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Maximum Irelia

Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Best Ahri Earth View Post
You're speaking as if it's still season 3. Wake up. Supports have items now. Supports can't ward as much anymore. Where are you going to spend your gold?? Guess YOU won't be spending it, but I'll be buying items like my teammates are.
Oh, I'll be buying items too, but I'm not going to QQ because I can't do Tons of Damage with my Triforce Sona. Supports. Are. Not. Meant. To. Carry. At least not in the traditional sense.

I'll say that I think the ward limit is a colossal nerf to supports, but that is a completely separate issue from the scaling changes.