Bye Bye Supports

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Maximum Irelia

Member

11-20-2013

Morello, I'm curious, what prompted the decision to start balancing supports for having an elevated gold supply? League only has three lanes worth of CS. I feel that artificially inflating the gold supply of "support" champions only leads to greater balancing issues. As a support main, I was pretty happy with my overall power during games.

The only thing I can think of is that this is to compensate for the indirect nerfs supports received through the ward limits. Is this the reasoning?


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Ratastok

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Morello,Hoping you read me here.
My major concern is the fact that AP champs with high utility and actually good AP ratios (AKA The overlords, Annie,Fidd and Zyra). will take over the support Role since they will scale better with the AP,will have a better lanning phase and still have a similar utility(Or better like that 3 sec RNG fear that will make you walk into your doom most of the time)compared to our common support champ.

I know you´re working in order to make support feel better, but you gotta understand,that this changes,right now,will bennefit those champs more than our lovely tagged as support roles that cant be played in any other role because they were nerfed out of them or designed specially for supporting.

Now ,as you should know,building AP is not the only way to play supp in S4,but lets take,for example sona.
Lets say you want to build her tanky CDR because her AP ratios suck and she is too squishy to do anything before getting bursted by the enemie´s support annie/Zyra.
Then you realize : Why am i playing Sona when i could be playing Thresh or Leona for a WAY BETTER CC and that can actually live the burst,while retaining plenty of the utility?

What are your plans to avoid that kind of situations?
Do you have any nerfs planned for the AP overlords?
Are you going to change Karma/Zilean/Thresh to fit the "AP Is utility" philosophy?


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YGY818

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Morello,

What if you decrease utility on ALL champs outside of support?

Example: Reduce CC effects from all champions by 25%, except for the support class.

This would place greater emphasis on items, and stop Annie from being a strong 1.75 sec stun support.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-20-2013
5 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceplosion View Post
First off, thank you for responding an listening to the community. I recognize that you're putting forth serious effort to listen to our concern.

We recognize that you have taken steps to prevent this issue from occurring, but in our opinion you haven't done enough to make playing a "traditional" support more enticing than playing another character in the support role. I'll wait until the patch roles out and people play around with all of the new stuff, but it seems to me that a great deal of champions will be played in the support role. My problem with this would be lessened is supports had strong viability in other roles, but as of now few do (I used strong viability rather than viable possible. AP Sona mid is possible, but not competitively viable.)

Somewhat of an unrelated question, but why isn't Thresh getting any changes? I outlined some of the changes I thought he could use in here, if you have a moment to skim through.
The support changes (Leona as an exception and experiment) are here to ensure core helpers are scaling in a new way. Tanks and Fighters (Thresh is a Fighter/Support hybird, really) have understood scaling frameworks that are well-understood - supports are the only characters who have never had a way to scale that made sense for them, was cohesive with their place in the game, and balancable.


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Faceplosion

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?
I'm guessing 50% of people who downvoted your post didn't actually bother to read it considering just how fast the downvotes came, so probably morose the first than the second. That said, many of us do have real concerns in regards to the scaling, and want a mature conversation in which we can voice our concerns. Others of us want to spend all their time making threads about how "ROIT CAN'T BALANCE FER ****" instead of trying to change things for the better with constructive criticism.

Welcome to GD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
The support changes (Leona as an exception and experiment) are here to ensure core helpers are scaling in a new way. Tanks and Fighters (Thresh is a Fighter/Support hybird, really) have understood scaling frameworks that are well-understood - supports are the only characters who have never had a way to scale that made sense for them, was cohesive with their place in the game, and balancable.
Thanks for the quick response! I'll wait and see how Thresh does in season 4, although I may have to start building him in a more fighter-esque manner if that's how you plan on balancing him. Kinda scared if he ends up doing well when building damage, considering he already has tons of utility and armor. Heck, not having damage is practically the only thing holding Thresh back, so I would somewhat be against encouraging Thresh players to build damage and be able to do it effectively.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-20-2013
6 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by YGY818 View Post
Morello,

What if you decrease utility on ALL champs outside of support?

Example: Reduce CC effects from all champions by 25%, except for the support class.
Because that's unnecessary - other classes (mages, tanks) bring utility too. One could argue 3 second Fear is probably silly in its own right, though.


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mi ramfan

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
When Lulu and Janna could lane and get gold she pushed Annie out of mid lane - these characters have gone insane with normal gold multiple times when allowed to solo lane. Now we COULD see a world where one of these characters can solo and we won't have to gut it - one definite advantage.

These characters should be about SUPPORT. If they're about damage, they're not support at all - they're mages.
Please tell me how having increased slow percentage based on AP is at all close to being as effective as having 200-300 more damage. Because that's the choice in bot lane right now.

Do I pick Sona for 5% more slows when I build some AP? Or do I pick Annie for 500 more damage when I build AP?

Do I pick Janna to peel for my AD carry, or do I pick Lissandra to peel for my AD carry while dealing massive damage?

Do I pick Lulu to wombo combo with my mid laner, or do I pick Orianna to wombo combo while dealing damage?

The choice between supports and utility mages with the current numbers is a completely false choice; utility mages have the same utility as supports AND deal more damage with gold invested into them. Why, then would you ever pick a traditional support when you can pick Annie, Zyra, Ori, or Liss?

It's one thing to say you want to keep traditional supports viable. It's another thing entirely to actually do it.

To prove that you're actually planning on how to keep traditional supports viable, tell us how you plan to buff each and every traditional support in patch 3.15 in the event that they come out of this patch unpickable and underpowered. You have clearly thought about these changes for a while, and so you shouldn't have a problem telling us what your plan is should the supports not be pickable after 3.14.


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The Revanchrist

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia View Post
snip
what you just posted i just said in the previous page (besides the proposed changes, i'm not a game def here)


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venaven

Member

11-20-2013

One thing I found amusing amidst all the qq is that people don't seem to realize one great blessing.
A newly incarnated version of heart of gold is back.
Face of the mountain is essentially a gold item, for supports, that grants you hp.


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Aakesh

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Supports are losing so much in order to receive something they should have been getting since the beginning of this game. They are getting punished for because they can actually buy items.

And this is what annoys me. There are 5 people on the team. ALL of the roles do damage and change the game. Supports are the only type of character that forsakes everything, and places all trust in everyone else. Why can't the support do damage like everyone else? Don't tell me utility, look at Orianna. This is why Zyra was nerfed, and Annie is gonna get hit too.

Everyone should be able to change the game in their own way and carry in their own way.

Also, why are supports being locked into one role now? They can't do anything else now. They made the entire experience worse for them and other supports for the sake of having welfare.