Bye Bye Supports

First Riot Post
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grimreefa

Senior Member

11-20-2013

ITT: people who think that supporting isn't about alternative gold income, warding, hard CC'ing and assists.


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SCNightwolf

Senior Member

11-20-2013

you do realize they test this sort of thing extensively before release right?

Not long ago everyone on this site was calling sivir (after her rework completely useless) and now she has a winrate of what like 60% or something close to that.


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Mokkun

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCNightwolf View Post
you do realize they test this sort of thing extensively before release right?

Not long ago everyone on this site was calling sivir (after her rework completely useless) and now she has a winrate of what like 60% or something close to that.
Their track record is less than stellar when it comes to large scale changes like this though. Remember beginning of S3?

5 black cleavers that all stacked? there were a number of things that despite constant feedback, and eventual subsequent nerfs, went live despite "extensive testing."

Riot may be getting better at the individual champion within the current system balancing, but their meta level shifts are often very bad at outset. It may be mid season 4 before this all gets stabilized out.


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Raptamei

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCNightwolf View Post
you do realize they test this sort of thing extensively before release right?

Not long ago everyone on this site was calling sivir (after her rework completely useless) and now she has a winrate of what like 60% or something close to that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCNightwolf View Post
you do realize they test this sort of thing extensively before release right?

[Sivir] has a winrate of what like 60% or something close to that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCNightwolf View Post
they test (...) extensively before release

[Sivir] has a winrate of (..) 60%
k


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Pentakill Prince

Senior Member

11-20-2013

It may be hard to understand because this transition is difficult to take in. Now you don't NEED to rush Sightstone on supports in Season 4. Instead you get Trinkets to help you with that and better income for buying wards.

I'm not saying it's not valuable to buy Sightstone anymore - because it is very much still worth getting. You are allowed you place a maximum of 3 wards so if you get a sightstone you're doing all you can.

Competing over vision of the map was also dramatically reduced - now Vision Wards can be seen and Oracle's has been removed. The only time you'll be using Pink Wards now is typically when you plan on not leaving a spot for an objective. Walking away from Pink Wards will do you no good.

The one thing I hate about supports now is their item builds. Riot has tossed some shiny new things around that give decent income to match that of someone farming, and then said "go, build!". I'm sure I find building utility and tank items as a supportive champion better than ability power or attack damage. Early game supports are being nerfed and late-game supports are being buffed. I find this change unnecessary since I specifically choose my supportive runes, masteries, and GP5 for early game and then Riot makes it pretty much for nothing.


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Lagginator

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Wow Soraka got BROKEN IN HALF.

She was kinda OP before, but these changes are massive. She is going to be absolute trash if kill-lanes become more popular, which looks to be a certainty.


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Heal n Peel

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCNightwolf View Post
you do realize they test this sort of thing extensively before release right?
PBE testing only goes so far.

Having a few thousand people test something is fine and will likely yield some good data (and reveal a few bugs).

Releasing it to a few million gives the better data (and finds more ways to break the game).


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-20-2013
1 of 19 Riot Posts

Let me speak to this a little;

In the initial reveal, we were talking about the new gold flow for supports - more gold, items and general "agency" being something long overdue for Support characters (in this context, Soraka, Sona, Lulu, Taric, Janna and Nami) who have been overworked and underfed despite actual impact or performance.

We now have a world of characters who have been only balanced to have no gold now having quite a bit of gold! This comes with a few truths:

1) The old support balance base lines no longer are balanced and valid, anymore than if we increased Marksmen, Fighter or Mage gold by the same amount would be.

2) Supports have been previously defined as "characters who function well with no gold." Now that's no longer the case, overtuned/undertuned mages (if we'd not made changes) is a bad identity. By introducing support scaling, supports become MORE supportive through gold - either through acquisition of active items or AP scaling on utility. This is all done specifically to not have AP Mages and Supports fight each other in a raw numbers perspective, and instead provide supports with scaling that fits their role of helping people and working with their team.

3) Looking at these changes, seeing "NERFS" as the takeaway is...well, I don't know how to put it....insane. One of the patch notes could be "increased income by 3000-6000 gold per game". We actually were very conservative on these champion changes in an effort to protect supports from obsoletion (and will react aggressively if that becomes the case in practice).

A glance at the patch notes can read like a nerf, if you ignore the context or associated changes. AP Mids may have additional viability bottom lane, though our changes are specifically to bulwark against that.

Support needed satisfaction, a more fleshed-out identity of "helper," and a place in the game that's real and valid. That's the entire premise of the preseason support changes.

EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-20-2013
2 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokkun View Post
Their track record is less than stellar when it comes to large scale changes like this though. Remember beginning of S3?

5 black cleavers that all stacked? there were a number of things that despite constant feedback, and eventual subsequent nerfs, went live despite "extensive testing."

Riot may be getting better at the individual champion within the current system balancing, but their meta level shifts are often very bad at outset. It may be mid season 4 before this all gets stabilized out.
Sure - it's true this stuff is pretty complex and difficult. Does the short-term Black Cleaver issue (that we then fixed) mean we shouldn't have made the changes at all? That doesn't seem like a good trade-off to me.

If the worries are true, then we'll address it to make sure it's not permanent.


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Arctic Bro

Member

11-20-2013

hi moarjello!
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