Bye Bye Supports

First Riot Post
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Secret Baller

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So you want all supports to turn into mages? Because that's what damage on these characters makes (and then you just nuke with them like AP mids).
No. If a support dealing good damage is an over tuned mage, then a mage with good utility is an over tuned support. Why not nerf what makes champions like Annie, Zyra, Orianna, and Lux strong supports? We're not saying to take away all of their utility, just make it less viable. Why is it alright for those mid lane champs to deal all that damage and still have great cc? Shouldn't they be forced to rely more on their tanks and supports for cc the same way tanks and supports have to rely on other roles to dish out damage? Otherwise, this is just a serious double standard.


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Moosin

Senior Member

11-21-2013

How are supports a utility class when AP mids got better utilities?

Just look at your new champ. Airborne + another aoe CC + team shield + self shield + two gapclosers.
Throw in crits and waveclears because 'hey, he is a carry'.

Name ANYTHING a support is good at. Even mid/jungle got better heals and buffs.


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Rortik

Senior Member

11-21-2013

I'll take Janna's 100 ad steroid over ziggs any day.


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Biaznatch

Junior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DethBySquirl View Post
But if you can now afford much more AP than previously, the reduced scaling isn't as relevant because you have more raw AP. An ability with base damage 500 with a .6 AP scaling would deal 620 damage with 200 AP. That same ability with a 0.5 scaling would deal 650 damage with 300 AP. Not to mention the gain in other stats like mana regen and CDR, on top of the additional utility scaling.

Contrary to popular belief, the game isn't all about raw numbers. If the goal was pure damage and to outright murder everyone without CC, then teams would be running 5 assassins and CC/utility would be removed from the game.

Look at the indirect contributions of increased utility, often amounting to more than the raw damage would have provided. If Janna shields her carry, he'll gain extra AD and durability in a lane duel, allowing him to contribute a lot more damage with increased survivability than if she did 100 more damage with her Q.

Supports are a force multiplier far more than they are brute forces. Their strength lies in increasing the strength of their teammates, which is the point. Soraka lands a clutch heal and lets her carry get off the last shot for his double kill. Nami speeds up their jungler as he ganks so he catches the enemy ADC in his ult. Lulu slows the enemy jungler long enough for the ADC to safely shred them. All of these things are very powerful game contributions that don't revolve around "LOOK AT ALL MY NUMBERS".

This seems obvious to me, but if we reduced the scaling and the base numbers of support it's easy to say they have more items so it balances out. But if I need 200 AP to hit my old utility and damage that means level 1-7 I'm that much further behind from Mages that didn't get the nerf. So advantage mages early and late game and we all know early game champs snowball often beats end game champs.

So we're missing a step in this logic circle. Or so it appears I have been wrong before... Once... I think... But I was drunk.


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LadyLightSyn

Junior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me speak to this a little;

In the initial reveal, we were talking about the new gold flow for supports - more gold, items and general "agency" being something long overdue for Support characters (in this context, Soraka, Sona, Lulu, Taric, Janna and Nami) who have been overworked and underfed despite actual impact or performance.

We now have a world of characters who have been only balanced to have no gold now having quite a bit of gold! This comes with a few truths:

1) The old support balance base lines no longer are balanced and valid, anymore than if we increased Marksmen, Fighter or Mage gold by the same amount would be.

2) Supports have been previously defined as "characters who function well with no gold." Now that's no longer the case, overtuned/undertuned mages (if we'd not made changes) is a bad identity. By introducing support scaling, supports become MORE supportive through gold - either through acquisition of active items or AP scaling on utility. This is all done specifically to not have AP Mages and Supports fight each other in a raw numbers perspective, and instead provide supports with scaling that fits their role of helping people and working with their team.

3) Looking at these changes, seeing "NERFS" as the takeaway is...well, I don't know how to put it....insane. One of the patch notes could be "increased income by 3000-6000 gold per game". We actually were very conservative on these champion changes in an effort to protect supports from obsoletion (and will react aggressively if that becomes the case in practice).

A glance at the patch notes can read like a nerf, if you ignore the context or associated changes. AP Mids may have additional viability bottom lane, though our changes are specifically to bulwark against that.

Support needed satisfaction, a more fleshed-out identity of "helper," and a place in the game that's real and valid. That's the entire premise of the preseason support changes.

EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?
Please hush and fix what you did you are killing them.


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LadyLightSyn

Junior Member

11-21-2013

Make supports mages please :P


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KungFuMustard

Junior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hidden dragon View Post
fuck you and your "toxic" bullshit.

Any character you don't like and need an excuse to gut is "toxic" in your mind. Tell me what the hell was wrong with old karma? She had a unique, perfectly balanceable kit that needed a minor numbers buff to make her a viable top or mid.

It's your repeated bullshit over and over for the last 3 seasons that makes it hard to believe you have any direction for your balance changes. The most glaring of balance problems are seemingly invisible to your balance team, despite literally forums full of feedback from everyone ranging from bronze 5s to pros.
bravo

abso-****ing-lutely


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MrKill1234

Senior Member

11-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moosin View Post
How are supports a utility class when AP mids got better utilities?

Just look at your new champ. Airborne + another aoe CC + team shield + self shield + two gapclosers.
Throw in crits and waveclears because 'hey, he is a carry'.

Name ANYTHING a support is good at. Even mid/jungle got better heals and buffs.
I raise you a Thresh. Hook + gap closer + knockback + pull (E pull) + team shield + self shield + ally re-positioning pathway/rescue + massive AOE slow + strong poke. A champion that needs NO DAMAGE and yet has a huge impact on the game. This is what people don't get. The beauty of a support is that they provide a lot without needing damage. For anything that that new champ does he needs damage for it to be valuable. No point in gapclosers if you are not going to end up hurting or massively CCing somebody.


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Mirage Night

Senior Member

11-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Great - you should! I think it's our responsibility to be accountable here.

(2 days does not constitute data, just to remember). Give it a little time to settle, see the fallout, then adjust. Not a LOT of time, just a little.
So, yeah. 2 days are not needed.

Within a day I have played I saw how rolled true supports were vs. a utility mage. Every game in which I saw a utility mage used vs a true support, the lane was destroyed. It not even funny. Ori/syndra/annie/fiddle. All of them were stomping Lulus/namis/sorakas like they were nothing. I am very un amused with this.

The only champion I had any success with was Leona and only because how strong targon is right now. Once that's nerfed, I doubt that will be the case.


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Commando66

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Senior Member

11-22-2013

Hm, did Morello take his ball and go home?