Bye Bye Supports

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

fieryfate

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DethBySquirl View Post
But if you can now afford much more AP than previously, the reduced scaling isn't as relevant because you have more raw AP. An ability with base damage 500 with a .6 AP scaling would deal 620 damage with 200 AP. That same ability with a 0.5 scaling would deal 650 damage with 300 AP. Not to mention the gain in other stats like mana regen and CDR, on top of the additional utility scaling.

Contrary to popular belief, the game isn't all about raw numbers. If the goal was pure damage and to outright murder everyone without CC, then teams would be running 5 assassins and CC/utility would be removed from the game.

Look at the indirect contributions of increased utility, often amounting to more than the raw damage would have provided. If Janna shields her carry, he'll gain extra AD and durability in a lane duel, allowing him to contribute a lot more damage with increased survivability than if she did 100 more damage with her Q.

Supports are a force multiplier far more than they are brute forces. Their strength lies in increasing the strength of their teammates, which is the point. Soraka lands a clutch heal and lets her carry get off the last shot for his double kill. Nami speeds up their jungler as he ganks so he catches the enemy ADC in his ult. Lulu slows the enemy jungler long enough for the ADC to safely shred them. All of these things are very powerful game contributions that don't revolve around "LOOK AT ALL MY NUMBERS".
Mage supports already had equal CC, equal utility, and better damage compared to the traditional supports before this patch. Annie and Zyra have AOE stuns, while Fiddle's fear is longer than most traditional supports' CC. Plus, as mage supports, they scale better with items than traditional supports do.

So now, both traditional supports and mage supports have items, which already gives the advantage to the mage supports. On top of that, only traditional supports get nerfed, which forces them out of the role that they're supposed to specialise in - supporting. Riot could have simply introduced the gold changes without touching the traditional supports and they would still have lost to mage supports.

As it stands, I'm already seeing a Dr Mundo support being played by COGnitive Gaming in the NACL esports stream right now.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Gankdalf

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?

More like you listened to the top 1% of this game, and patched according to their preferences.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KingKazuma2

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Great - you should! I think it's our responsibility to be accountable here.

(2 days does not constitute data, just to remember). Give it a little time to settle, see the fallout, then adjust. Not a LOT of time, just a little.
This is what a lot of people wanted to hear (I think). Thanks, Morello


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Whoviantrekgater

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You're comparing characters who are toxic and unhealthy for years instead of big preseason changes; this is the response to EXACTLY one of those problems (supports feel bad and are ward-*****es), and just like in Season 2, (League of X doesn't exist now, right?) we'll do what we need to.

"We'll buff the numbers on the support scaling rations in mostly non-damage ways, or nerfs extreme duo-lane offenders if needed/appropriate." That's the plan, basically - it's simple, and by necessity is reactive. What we've done here IS the proactive approach like giving them non-damage scaling and not going hard on the numbers tweaks.
I think part of what you don't understand is that the community does not agree with you at all on your definition of toxic... Kassadin is our definition of toxic. A champion that hard-counters 90% of mids? now there's a champ it's perfectly ok to beat down with the nerf bat until they can be reworked. But even still Kass mains shouldn't have to wait months for a rework. There was never qq about Olaf like there has been about Kass... I've also never heard anyone call Irelia toxic, yet you have on multiple occasions, and have left her in a bad spot. You should honestly do an AMA or something on what the community feels is toxic because from what I've seen your opinion of toxic is way different that the communities. And just one example is the fact that we feel, but you don't, that the support role is the weakest role. And no role should be able to be singled out like that.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DethBySquirl

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

11-21-2013

I don't believe that mages have the same utility as the support champs. The popular ones in the argument seem to be Annie and Fiddlesticks. Okay, so that's a stun, a fear, and a silence between the two of them.

Meanwhile, Lulu has a powerful slow, a shield with an AA enhancer, a silence, a polymorph, and an AoE knockup that grants bonus health. Taric has a two-target heal, an armor aura (which is worth a LOT of 'free gold' to his teammates), an armor shred, a ranged stun, and an ult that grants AD and AP to all his teammates (again, free gold). Sona has free AD/AP, free resistances, multi-target heal, free movement speed, and an AoE stun, with the ability to slow a target or reduce their damage output. Janna grants free movement speed, a skillshot knockup, a slow, a damage shield that grants bonus AD, and an AoE knockback with a heal.

I think a lot of people are speaking from the experience of playing a support in solo queue games, especially in normals/bronze, where coordination and teamwork tend to be much weaker, which lessens the impact of the utility and increases the visibility of individual damage contributions. I can't count the number of times I've played Taric and landed a stun+shatter, but my ADC reacted a second too slowly and the enemy got away, and I thought "man if only I did more damage we would have had that". But in higher ranked games or with premade teams of players with experience and communication, that utility becomes a much more powerful thing.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ant

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

11-21-2013

This thread's a ****ing joke, made by and upvoted by Silvers who don't think Supports should be anything but ward machines. OP doesn't even list any sort of competent reasoning as to why Supports are "nerfed pieces of junk."

I knew GD had a bunch of downsies, but I didn't think it was this bad.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

agbudar

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me speak to this a little;

In the initial reveal, we were talking about the new gold flow for supports - more gold, items and general "agency" being something long overdue for Support characters (in this context, Soraka, Sona, Lulu, Taric, Janna and Nami) who have been overworked and underfed despite actual impact or performance.

We now have a world of characters who have been only balanced to have no gold now having quite a bit of gold! This comes with a few truths:
you contradict yourself here by saying that supports had no gold/impact
and that you call balance no morrello fact is it wasn't balanced now that a support cannot burn money on wards doesn't mean that they are suddenly OP. ever tried a sona mid? yea it works very well good poke and whatnot and skirmishes are nice but after lvl 10 it starts hurting and if you didn't have a good lead you are not very useful. on top of that sona gets utterly raped by any assassin type midlaner like zed. (keep in mind this is before that nerf you just introduced
Quote:
1) The old support balance base lines no longer are balanced and valid, anymore than if we increased Marksmen, Fighter or Mage gold by the same amount would be.

2) Supports have been previously defined as "characters who function well with no gold." Now that's no longer the case, overtuned/undertuned mages (if we'd not made changes) is a bad identity. By introducing support scaling, supports become MORE supportive through gold - either through acquisition of active items or AP scaling on utility. This is all done specifically to not have AP Mages and Supports fight each other in a raw numbers perspective, and instead provide supports with scaling that fits their role of helping people and working with their team.
it also has been stated plenty of times that gold on a support is by far not as efficient as it is on a marksman now you just made a support even less efficient with gold good job
Quote:
3) Looking at these changes, seeing "NERFS" as the takeaway is...well, I don't know how to put it....insane. One of the patch notes could be "increased income by 3000-6000 gold per game". We actually were very conservative on these champion changes in an effort to protect supports from obsoletion (and will react aggressively if that becomes the case in practice).

A glance at the patch notes can read like a nerf, if you ignore the context or associated changes. AP Mids may have additional viability bottom lane, though our changes are specifically to bulwark against that.

Support needed satisfaction, a more fleshed-out identity of "helper," and a place in the game that's real and valid. That's the entire premise of the preseason support changes.

EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?
Morello i can literally garantuee you you will see a massive drop in ranked sona games maybe not the first week as everyone will try things out but ... no if the gold is more efficient on a annie (who lets face it has a stun just as powerful if not better as sona) everyone is gonna take that annie. heck a fiddle support who now has a albeit limited but a gold source nonetheless as support?

and look at those items you are gonna add i can see those work on solo top as well for someone who gets hardcountered which by every frikkin means is anti fun and toxic imo and may i say thank you for that.
so saying that supports are the only one to benefit from these changes is a lie as a jungler i have been told plenty of times to reserve a 6th slot for wards.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ScarecrowJames

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Because that's unnecessary - other classes (mages, tanks) bring utility too. One could argue 3 second Fear is probably silly in its own right, though.
Don't you touch my fiddlesticks...He already has enough trouble with the current junglers hopping through trees and such.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

fieryfate

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DethBySquirl View Post
I don't believe that mages have the same utility as the support champs. The popular ones in the argument seem to be Annie and Fiddlesticks. Okay, so that's a stun, a fear, and a silence between the two of them.

Meanwhile, Lulu has a powerful slow, a shield with an AA enhancer, a silence, a polymorph, and an AoE knockup that grants bonus health. Taric has a two-target heal, an armor aura (which is worth a LOT of 'free gold' to his teammates), an armor shred, a ranged stun, and an ult that grants AD and AP to all his teammates (again, free gold). Sona has free AD/AP, free resistances, multi-target heal, free movement speed, and an AoE stun, with the ability to slow a target or reduce their damage output. Janna grants free movement speed, a skillshot knockup, a slow, a damage shield that grants bonus AD, and an AoE knockback with a heal.

I think a lot of people are speaking from the experience of playing a support in solo queue games, especially in normals/bronze, where coordination and teamwork tend to be much weaker, which lessens the impact of the utility and increases the visibility of individual damage contributions. I can't count the number of times I've played Taric and landed a stun+shatter, but my ADC reacted a second too slowly and the enemy got away, and I thought "man if only I did more damage we would have had that". But in higher ranked games or with premade teams of players with experience and communication, that utility becomes a much more powerful thing.
Nope, most of the evidence comes from competitive LoL and not from solo queue. Annie support was popularised by Tabe from Royal Club, the 1st runner-up in S3 Worlds. Riot started paying attention to the problem of Zyra support only when multiple competitive leagues around the world started seeing her playing as support.

You may not believe that Annie and other support mages have the same utility as traditional supports, but that does not match with what we see empirically in competitive games. Plus, since only the traditional supports have been nerfed, you will have to argue that the utility brought by traditional supports before the patch was so much greater than that of support mages to the extent that the former can still stand toe-to-toe with the latter even after the nerfs. Good luck with that.

As an aside, there's no need to list out the support skills lol, because most of us complaining about the nerfs are support mains. Taric, Janna, Sona, etc, we've played them all, and we know exactly what they're capable of. We also learnt one thing from the competitive players - that the most powerful CC is death. A dead enemy champion is CC-ed for 20-30 seconds after all.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Detris White

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-21-2013

F U. Support is more amazing than before now