Bye Bye Supports

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Farranor

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Likely so on Thresh - I'm not confident he's right either. Though I am pretty sure he'll still be good :P
How about he gets the sort of change other supports are now getting, which I suggested 6 months ago?

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com....php?t=3409630

TL;DR: Scale the utility portion of his E (width, CD, or slow) instead of its on-hit steroid.

EDIT: And why aren't mages getting utility nerfs because utility isn't their job, in the same way that supports are getting damage nerfs because damage isn't their job? If mages already brought enough utility for early-game, why nerf traditional supports' early-game utility? Mages will still have damage and utility while supports are being pigeonholed into only having utility.


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CarpeDezNuts

Senior Member

11-21-2013

I like how GD complains about "knee jerk reactions" from riot when it comes to nerfing/buffing champions.

Then GD knee jerk reacts to changes implemented in a preseason envoirnment. These changes are not final.

Honestly though, I am a bit concerned about my beloved support role. I main traditional support champions (leona, nami, sona, thresh, taric). Before I decide if I like the changes they have made to vision/support/gold income, I will have to play an extensive amount of games.

Stop complaining and TEST TEST TEST GD.


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Biaznatch

Junior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think some of this is that there ARE mages who have too high of a combination of damage and utility. I don't think it's incredibly important that characters like Orianna and Anivia need damage that is as high as many peers and game-changing utility. Maybe there's a chicken-and-egg thing here that's really frustrating - I can understand that.

The irony about this is that this is all intended to help support characters, specifically. The concerns and thoughts we have;

1) We want to avoid a world where mages invalidate supports. Again, we'll be aggressive here. Maybe some other characters have too much (I tend to think so), maybe some mages go bottom too. Remember support gold is not equal to solo lane/farm gold, it's just quite a bit more than "none."

2) Support players have felt like their impact matters less, they have an imbalance of responsibility/rewards/success metrics. We think giving them access to the power growth tools (and not making them do "kill you" things to get it) is a big win for this.

3) We want to define supports as helpers and team-players first. This is pretty tough when you have 4 years of them being defined as ward bots with no gold. Tanks differ than fighters and have lower damage - edge cases like J4 do exist here too. Sona might just be a mage labelled as a support (as her power contribution is lane damage/late game CC) - if so, we'll have to modify her to a damage-oriented scaling model or something. That is tunable, and this is not the last patch ever ever ever.

4) To make big changes like this is disruptive by its nature. Balance will be temporarily off. Expectations that we've had for characters will change. What will almost never result from fixing game problems is "we just gave you free power/buffs!" Those aren't good solutions to what are systemic problems, but I feel that the expectation is that somehow (that applies to reworks and stuff, too).

This will be rough on launch - please go find abuse cases! Go try to do traditional support. Report your experience. We've cleared out our days to marathon a bit for less useful anecdotal evidence from our experiences. See what snaps that internal tests and a limited player pool can't catch.

I think this disruption and uncertainty of the correctness of the details is more than worth the ability to bring supports into being first-class citizens with a unique identity. It's long overdue and is a pain that's existed for a long time. Just because something being in a bad state is known and comfortable doesn't mean it's better than taking it somewhere better that is a bit frightening and unknown to people.

It appears to me that you still have this notion that bottom lane is this intricate battle of pokes and slight advantages while you farm for the first 20 minutes of a game. Have you forgotten that you have systematically removed this style of play from the game as it lengthened overall game times and created stagnent play? The tower nerfs, the minion changes, the access to gold, and now the weaker early game ganks have turned the lanning phase into a tower rush bananza.

Which hey is cool, but this is why burst mages wreck bottom lane, an early game death is a tower down which steam rolls your team. The gold per 10 items aren't needed as games arent over in 35 minutes not an hour and 10 like the used to be. Bottom lane is a slugfest, if you want supports to be late game utility you have to up their base numbers lower their scaling and put utility into usable items.

Otherwise a Mage will do it better. Lets supports choose utility items that grant gold or a path that leads to somewhat poor but bursty Mage. This would still leave supports to niche role elsewhere. Late game is gone and I'd rather have a 500 damage ult Annie than a slightly faster sona. Heck il just get shyralias on Annie and have the best of both champs....

But seriously the delicate bot lane is gone, change your idea of supports of watch them go away.


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Empyrius

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

As changes to supports are being applied, it opened more champions to be able to support. Are nerfs to be expected of these champions to fit the support role? Ap viegar was in my first game after patch and he was wrecking bottom lane. New trinkets and jungle changes make it hard for junglers to gank.

Basically we know Viegar is supposed to be a mage, but his kit plus increased gold output allow him to go full mage while being a viable support.


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DethBySquirl

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Member

11-21-2013

I just don't understand why people are complaining about nerfs to damage scaling on supports who are suddenly getting more gold. If an ability gets its AP damage ratio lowered from, say, 0.6 to 0.5, but that champion now has the gold and itemization to buy 300 AP where they previously had none at all, it's a straight up buff to their damage.


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Raiyn

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DethBySquirl View Post
I just don't understand why people are complaining about nerfs to damage scaling on supports who are suddenly getting more gold. If an ability gets its AP damage ratio lowered from, say, 0.6 to 0.5, but that champion now has the gold and itemization to buy 300 AP where they previously had none at all, it's a straight up buff to their damage.

Unless you had previously been buying damage to begin with while warding moderately and working with your team to ward.


I used to play AP janna support, that's dead now thanks to Riot. My heal is irrelevant, my tornado is garbage and ffs my ****ing global passive is gone.


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fieryfate

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DethBySquirl View Post
I just don't understand why people are complaining about nerfs to damage scaling on supports who are suddenly getting more gold. If an ability gets its AP damage ratio lowered from, say, 0.6 to 0.5, but that champion now has the gold and itemization to buy 300 AP where they previously had none at all, it's a straight up buff to their damage.
The complaints aren't about the support role, they're about the support champions (i.e: the list of champions you see when you go to the links on the top of this page: Game Info -> Champions -> tick the "Support" box).

These support champions have been out-supported by non-supports like Annie, Zyra, and Fiddlesticks even before the patch. And if you give gold to both the traditional supports and the mage supports, like this patch does, the latter will ultimately benefit more.

If you then go on to nerf the traditional supports without doing the same to mage supports, then the traditional supports will simply fall off the cliff.


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Whoviantrekgater

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So you want all supports to turn into mages? Because that's what damage on these characters makes (and then you just nuke with them like AP mids).
Sounds good to me... then I wouldn't have people saying in chat "I'll feed if I support."


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DethBySquirl

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Member

11-21-2013

But if you can now afford much more AP than previously, the reduced scaling isn't as relevant because you have more raw AP. An ability with base damage 500 with a .6 AP scaling would deal 620 damage with 200 AP. That same ability with a 0.5 scaling would deal 650 damage with 300 AP. Not to mention the gain in other stats like mana regen and CDR, on top of the additional utility scaling.

Contrary to popular belief, the game isn't all about raw numbers. If the goal was pure damage and to outright murder everyone without CC, then teams would be running 5 assassins and CC/utility would be removed from the game.

Look at the indirect contributions of increased utility, often amounting to more than the raw damage would have provided. If Janna shields her carry, he'll gain extra AD and durability in a lane duel, allowing him to contribute a lot more damage with increased survivability than if she did 100 more damage with her Q.

Supports are a force multiplier far more than they are brute forces. Their strength lies in increasing the strength of their teammates, which is the point. Soraka lands a clutch heal and lets her carry get off the last shot for his double kill. Nami speeds up their jungler as he ganks so he catches the enemy ADC in his ult. Lulu slows the enemy jungler long enough for the ADC to safely shred them. All of these things are very powerful game contributions that don't revolve around "LOOK AT ALL MY NUMBERS".


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Remikai

Senior Member

11-21-2013

lol at all the posts commenting on the "support role" and not the common "support champions"

The support role is fine. The support champions are worthless now. Sona? lol. Soraka? hehe Janna? why?