Bye Bye Supports

First Riot Post
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Masochist

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

We're upgrading support utility!

While we're at it, let's nerf it too!

Quote:
  • Removed the Ability Power boost
  • Base movement speed increase reduced to 30% (from 35%)
Woo!


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MarshallBananna

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Riot:

We added +5 to X
so we took -2 from Y, -2 from Z and -3 from W to compensate.

yeah....


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coeriv

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Pick a trinket, any trinket. All viable for supports.


But don't pick any trinket that isn't the ward trinket.


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Livingsword

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me speak to this a little;

In the initial reveal, we were talking about the new gold flow for supports - more gold, items and general "agency" being something long overdue for Support characters (in this context, Soraka, Sona, Lulu, Taric, Janna and Nami) who have been overworked and underfed despite actual impact or performance.

We now have a world of characters who have been only balanced to have no gold now having quite a bit of gold! This comes with a few truths:

1) The old support balance base lines no longer are balanced and valid, anymore than if we increased Marksmen, Fighter or Mage gold by the same amount would be.

2) Supports have been previously defined as "characters who function well with no gold." Now that's no longer the case, overtuned/undertuned mages (if we'd not made changes) is a bad identity. By introducing support scaling, supports become MORE supportive through gold - either through acquisition of active items or AP scaling on utility. This is all done specifically to not have AP Mages and Supports fight each other in a raw numbers perspective, and instead provide supports with scaling that fits their role of helping people and working with their team.

3) Looking at these changes, seeing "NERFS" as the takeaway is...well, I don't know how to put it....insane. One of the patch notes could be "increased income by 3000-6000 gold per game". We actually were very conservative on these champion changes in an effort to protect supports from obsoletion (and will react aggressively if that becomes the case in practice).

A glance at the patch notes can read like a nerf, if you ignore the context or associated changes. AP Mids may have additional viability bottom lane, though our changes are specifically to bulwark against that.

Support needed satisfaction, a more fleshed-out identity of "helper," and a place in the game that's real and valid. That's the entire premise of the preseason support changes.

EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?
Since supports get more gold we are nerfing them to keep them around the same power lvl...

Yeah, great move for none supports! They get to use the new gold, while traditional supports just get an illusion of new gold, real nice move Riot.

What's so hard to understand? If the support role gets more gold, who are gonna go bot with the ADC? Supports who can't really make much use of the new income since they got nerfed to reflect the new income, or AP mages with utility who can make real use of the new cash and don't have garbage ratios?


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TigStripe

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
These characters should be about SUPPORT. If they're about damage, they're not support at all - they're mages.
That's nice. Meanwhile, Jarvan can top lane bruiser, tank jungle, and support kill lane. Malphite can AP carry mid, tank top or jungle, and even AP support. Fiora can AD bruiser top, AD caster mid, or AD melee carry jungle.

So many champions can fill other roles, yet you have outright forced the "dedicated supports" into one role through these changes, and it's a role they're not even guaranteed to get in competitive play.

I've been waiting. WAITING. for Janna nerfs to her AP because she was one of the only supports you could solo lane with at the end of season 3. You butchered solo Soraka. Solo Sona. Solo top and solo mid Lulu. Solo Taric is laughable now, and he can't jungle well anymore, either. Leona's not even possible by herself. Nami's numbers aren't high enough to even consider soloing, and never were.

You can sit in your ivory tower, thinking each champion has a role they're best at while still being able to perform in other roles, but you've shoehorned every support into a single possible place in the game. And what's annoying about it to me personally is that I enjoyed playing Janna in roles other than support. I actually hate playing her support. Now I have to.

Thanks, Riot, you killed my favorite champion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Just because something being in a bad state is known and comfortable doesn't mean it's better than taking it somewhere better that is a bit frightening and unknown to people.
Who said it's about taking it somewhere better? You're taking things away and giving unrelated things, in an attempt to "make it better" when the champions worked well as they were.

You guys specifically talked about CDR/Mana5 scaling. Surprise, supports got close to 40% CDR every game as it stood. SO MUCH MANA REGEN. Health and health regen was great, too! Not really sure what you're aiming to change with it, when they were already getting those things whenever they could.


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Steam Store

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Well I for one will be playing fiddlesticks support instead of sona now. 3 sec fear + high scaling AP ratios? Hell yeah! I would much rather have this than an extra 1% snare for every 100 AP lol.


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Souijinn

Senior Member

11-21-2013

The biggest problem is that supports are basically out-classed by mages who offer similar ultility but actually still have the damage to compensate. When classed as a support, players wanted to feel impactful, right? Then why take damage out of their kits?

In fact, I bet if we didn't get the ratio/utility changes, but still got the gold changes, support mains would still be overall more happy. Why? Because the gold they get would become more, if not, just stay impactful. Utility is one aspect of what a support does, but when they don't have the impactful damage power, then what becomes of them is a slave (just like how all the other supports hated to feel like) for the adc to utilize for their own lack of utility. The gold will most likely be put towards Aura and Active items still, and then the AP isn't there. Then what we have is an EVEN LESS impactful support because their utility is not only weakened, but their utilization of the gold is just a complete illusion because they cannot contribute to small skirmishes.

When you have a Damage stat become an utility stat, then that brings nothing to the game after. Especially when you have items become a staple for supports to have that have no AP to use. In fact, a raise in ratios would have been a very good direction. Why? Because then you don't just pigeon-hole a support into a forced role. Look at all the other roles! They have the versatility to be in various other lanes. In fact, Supports were fun to use in mid. Sure they didn't have the damage, but they had comparably the same power and when it reached a point in the game, they were able to be on par with other Usual mids because they had the money, AP, and utility to become what they wanted to be. A game changing (in other words impactful) character who would be able to make extreme clutch plays.


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Malgana

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
When Lulu and Janna could lane and get gold she pushed Annie out of mid lane - these characters have gone insane with normal gold multiple times when allowed to solo lane. Now we COULD see a world where one of these characters can solo and we won't have to gut it - one definite advantage.

These characters should be about SUPPORT. If they're about damage, they're not support at all - they're mages.
Then get rid of their damage scaling completely, boost their base damages by a lot, and make them scale their CC/buff effects with AP rather than their damage.

It would just make sense, AP mages get to keep their better damage, but they'll be outclassed by supports whose CC or buffs or whatever lasts longer/is better.


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Fashion Mage

Senior Member

11-21-2013

After playing Soraka now, I think she might just be in trash tier; a step above garbage tier. I've done pretty well with her (even though my team always feeds and I lose), but it's only a matter of time until people realize how Morellonomicon completely counters her.


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TheMask336

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by EffectFX View Post
They BARELY nerfed supports. Supports now get more gold. Supports now can buy more items. What's the problem? Riot has already stated that should they feel they overnerfed anyone they'll work on it next patch. That's the reason for the preseason. So they can make radical changes like this. Don't like it? Go play something else.
the problem is the fact that they took at the oracles gave the vision wards non stealth making them pointless, 100g for one ward..... then in return u get 30g to destroy it then the other team goes n destroys it when u could of used that on an item that was worth it now.

limiting players to 3 greens n 1 pink is wat is killing the supps. Those of us who main supp and didn't mind buying all the wards for the team are now at the mercy of 4 other ppl to do their warding. You know how bloody freaking hard it was to get ppl to ward before this gd patch??????? now ugh.