Bye Bye Supports

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Samuel L Jaxx

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regulas View Post
AHHHHH!!!!! CHANGE!!!! AHHHHH!!!!


This has been a summary of thread (and most threads on GD right now).
Know what they say bout change?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Linna Excel

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So you want all supports to turn into mages? Because that's what damage on these characters makes (and then you just nuke with them like AP mids).
I would argue that this is true. Most people would prefer utility mages instead of supports.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Linna Excel

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
3) Having not had gold in 3 years is not a counter-argument for why this class can not have damage nerfs when it should be focused on utility, which is how we will likely continue to scale them (CD's, duration, intensity, impact).
Utility is under appreciated. Look at GW and GW2. In GW there were multiple classes with utility, monks, mesmers, ritualists, and water elementalists (some necros to a degree). In GW2 classes are all about doing damage for the most part. Mesmers while still around lost their utility. Monks and Rits were merged into the bruiserish guardian class. Necros aren't utility anymore. A water elementalist is the closest thing the game has to a utility class anymore and it doesn't have much in the way of damage or utility and is an UP pick. You are better off going fire or air.

In LOL utility is only good when you can chain lockdown another champ. If Leona didn't have a combo lock she'd be a trash tier pick.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Quadrakill Amumu

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
4) To make big changes like this is disruptive by its nature. Balance will be temporarily off. Expectations that we've had for characters will change. What will almost never result from fixing game problems is "we just gave you free power/buffs!" Those aren't good solutions to what are systemic problems, but I feel that the expectation is that somehow (that applies to reworks and stuff, too).
Why not? That sounds like a perfectly reasonable solution when the problem in question is "you don't have enough power to begin with."

The status quo of having 3 strong champions, 1 weak champion, and 1 very weak champion is the problem. Ideally, we want to move to 5 strong champions, not 4 strong champions and 1 weak champion. The new support is supposed to be a lot stronger than the old support. I see absolutely no need to nerf them just so you can give more gold, it's not like they would be more powerful than non-support champions even given the same amount of gold. So now you are tuning supports to be weaker than non-supports even given the same amount of gold? How does that make any sense?

I find the whole idea of having an entire class of champions with artificially deflated scaling ridiculous. Supports don't need to be weaker than regular champions just because they are getting some gold now.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BF123456789

Senior Member

11-21-2013

I can't believe you mentally retarded mouth breathing neckbeards actually thought supports would be nerfed. You should really all just kill yourselves.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FaerKhan

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Don't want to scale CC with AP at all. Might be tough for a couple characters (though they likely just scale better on HP/CDR).
To be honest Morello, I don't think you're going to go very far if you don't allow some CC scaling on supports. Otherwise mage champions with CC + damage are always going to be better unless you remove/nerf CC from them.

A support champion such as Sona is NEVER going to be as good building HP than a tanky support like Alistar or Leona, and getting full CDR wasn't really a problem except at the highest competitive level.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Raptamei

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by bunies View Post
now your just pulling **** out of your ass morello, ap mid janna was never a ****ing terror, it never did ****. Ap lulu only had the ability to **** up ryze then do nothing
This. Playing against an AP Janna was at worst somewhat annoying, but "somewhat annoying" doesn't mean "ELIMINATE FROM THE GAME OR I QUIT".

Meanwhile you still don't get loss forgiven when there's a leaver on your team. That makes people throw their mouse against the wall. Not AP Janna, but many of the other flaws still in the game.

I wonder why Riot likes to micromanage champions while skipping over the bigger problems. Olaf apparently needed counterplay, but having role fights every other champion select is OK.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Apollinarius

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by xProR2D2x View Post
Actually, Yes.
I think that's the only way for them to see competitive play, to stop being 'only' supports.
Moreover, they will see even more non-competitive play as well because the truth is, almost no one enjoys playing with a champion that relies so much in its teammates to do damage, specially in Solo-que where all your teammates are strangers.
Annie and Fiddle are played bot not only because of their CC, but also because of their contribution with damage.

TL;DR Supports should be what they always should have been: A SUBCLASS, not a class. Or in an RPG logic: a secondary profession. Trinkets is a clear example of a step foward pointing to this direction, classifying 'support vision' as a subclass where everyone contributes, instead of only one person. The same should happen to the support tag in general. Turning 'support champions' (not tanks) into mages is the right path and I think it shouldn't be a problem, considering every role has champions with utility, and mages have been invalidating supports for a very long time. Just my 2cents.

If you doubt support mains will be sad, ask yourself why would a support main feel uncomfortable playing with a mage champion like Orianna, if it does high damage and has the same utility of a support as well? As I said, support should be a subclass, where everyone can contribute in a small degree, just like in every competitive game and S4 vision.
(reposted due to edits c: )
As someone who loves support, this is the opposite of what I want.

When I play support, I honestly feel bad if I ever see mid or AD carry buy wards. I feel that I let them down that they need to buy that vision. I want to carry games by providing my team with vision. If I wanted to carry by doing damage, then I'd have picked another role.

A support isn't something that *has* to be on a team. It's something people want to have on a team because it adds to the team's overall success. It's something people want to play because they want to do something other than try to figure out the optimal damage scaling build for their champion.

I feel like this whole argument is basically about the fact that warding and providing vision is easy and something everyone in every role knows how to do well. Therefore, why have a dedicated person to manage vision. I feel that this is wrong. As someone who plays about 40% of his games as support, I know better than most about where wards go, where to put my pink wards, how to ward safely. Those are skills I took a long time learning, just like someone spent a long time practicing how to get off a QWERF on their assassin so that they burst down a carry in one second.

This change completely invalidates the time I spent in mastering the support role. I honestly don't see the point of playing support anymore. They're just another damage dealer, but one that isn't supposed to CS. I feel like bot lane will become a duo lane with a player who likes to CS and one who doesn't.

To make matters worse, all the gold generating support items are specifically geared toward lanes, so that a duo jungle combination is much less workable than in S3. We're really stuck with two people in bot lane, and now there isn't any warding for the support to do anymore.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

bunies

Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
If this is the problem, we can increase support utility ratios - and if that is really not good, we will. It's a real risk, but the difference is this is a temporal issue, just like League of X was in preseason last year. That's the time to do this stuff, get the data/feedback, and get it in tuning for 2014. If I seem like I'm not worried, it's because the path forward is clear in any case - the whole preseason plan is predicated on tuning being imperfect and us being on-deck to fix it.

So essentialy you are admitedly ruining the game for X amount of time becaus you have no ****ing idea of how to figure things out wihout puting them into the liver server ?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

bunies

Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptamei View Post
This. Playing against an AP Janna was at worst somewhat annoying, but "somewhat annoying" doesn't mean "ELIMINATE FROM THE GAME OR I QUIT".

Meanwhile you still don't get loss forgiven when there's a leaver on your team. That makes people throw their mouse against the wall. Not AP Janna, but many of the other flaws still in the game.

I wonder why Riot likes to micromanage champions while skipping over the bigger problems. Olaf apparently needed counterplay, but having role fights every other champion select is OK.
problem is things would require actual work, something most rioters arent willing to do