Bye Bye Supports

First Riot Post
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WereAssassin

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by tempname129c View Post
I think you guys are being a little bit too hard on Morello. Let's be reasonable, here. He seems to genuinely care about this subject, and the mindless down-votes against him aren't exactly helping to convey a positive conjecture. Please don't be asinine. Don't drive Morello away into contempt and/or disgust. Instead, try to make your points crystal-clear, and feel free to throw in some math or facts to solidify your arguments. Be rational.
Yea...you know math is a perfect language right? Your logic is the same as taking all of the cards you think look cool in YuGiOh! and thinking they are good ,not because of the numbers ,but because you believe in the heart of the cards. Sadly, no matter how much you believe that traditional supports can "heart" their way in games now, they will be outclassed by "support" champions. Personally I am excited. I'm planning on supporting with Karthus, Leblanc, and Caitlyn later today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmlinden7 View Post
What's stopping you from releasing items that have 0 combat stats but very strong actives that solo laners have no incentive to buy (build path, lack of stats)?
This is not DoTA. Go home. I play DoTA occasionally. Its pretty fun(<3 Warlock/Keeper of Light)


And on a very personal note to every Janna,Soraka,Taric,and Lulu main,(as an (old)Karma main) Welcome to the ranks of Karma,Yi, and Trundle. May we never forget about the champions that were deleted and replaced with look-a-likes with the same name, and may their souls rest in peace. Amen


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Regulas

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

AHHHHH!!!!! CHANGE!!!! AHHHHH!!!!


This has been a summary of thread (and most threads on GD right now).


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P1LLOWHUMP3R

Senior Member

11-21-2013

I don't know, I played a game as taric thus morning and the damage he was able to take from ez and Raka was crazy.
I literally stood in front of my ADC and let them both take shots at me while the ADC either took hits at them or farmed.
Didn't check the told output at the end of the game.


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Vanra

Senior Member

11-21-2013

I think I get it now. Yes, mages are going to be picked more often as support, but then again, most of them have already been kicked out of mid lane by assassins. This whole change to support is actually intended to make mages viable picks again. Right? Right???


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Raptamei

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
3) Looking at these changes, seeing "NERFS" as the takeaway is...well, I don't know how to put it....insane. One of the patch notes could be "increased income by 3000-6000 gold per game".
Exactly, the nerfs serve to compensate for the extra gold inflow.
MEANWHILE EVERY MAGE GOING BOT JUST GETS +3000-6000 WORTH OF HIGH AP SCALING WITH NO NERFS TO COMPENSATE.

I don't believe this was just missed during design and testing. You guys are not idiots. Am I correct when I assume this is imperfect balance at work and it is being done on purpose in order to rotate the pool of viable supports and keep the game fresh?

I know Riot likes imperfect balance. I never really agreed with it because people invest time and money into their champions and the concept of rotating the best picks while keeping everything else at least playable doesn't work in a competitive environment where anything that isn't the best is not viable. But to delete an entire role from the game and replace it with a second weaker AP mid for all intents and purposes, just because you couldn't manage to make the support role fun...?

Even if you manage to balance both supports and AP rejects eventually, the old support role is essentially lost. It was not a popular role, but NOT because "supporting" isn't fun, but because it wasn't implemented well. To just throw it out is weak. You know those shooters (Savage etc) that have a "commander" role? The guy that doesn't fire a shot but calls the shots? Or the raid leader in an MMO who may not be the main tank but has a very important role in keeping an eye on the fight, telling people where to go and what the boss is doing? Those are glamourous support roles.

It saddens me that Riot settled on the "...no clue how to fix it, so let's just remove it" solution.


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WereAssassin

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptamei View Post
Exactly, the nerfs serve to compensate for the extra gold inflow.
MEANWHILE EVERY MAGE GOING BOT JUST GETS +3000-6000 WORTH OF HIGH AP SCALING WITH NO NERFS TO COMPENSATE.

I don't believe this was just missed during design and testing. You guys are not idiots. Am I correct when I assume this is imperfect balance at work and it is being done on purpose in order to rotate the pool of viable supports and keep the game fresh?

I know Riot likes imperfect balance. I never really agreed with it because people invest time and money into their champions and the concept of rotating the best picks while keeping everything else at least playable doesn't work in a competitive environment where anything that isn't the best is not viable. But to delete an entire role from the game and replace it with a second weaker AP mid for all intents and purposes, just because you couldn't manage to make the support role fun...?

Even if you manage to balance both supports and AP rejects eventually, the old support role is essentially lost. It was not a popular role, but NOT because "supporting" isn't fun, but because it wasn't implemented well. To just throw it out is weak. You know those shooters (Savage etc) that have a "commander" role? The guy that doesn't fire a shot but calls the shots? Or the raid leader in an MMO who may not be the main tank but has a very important role in keeping an eye on the fight, telling people where to go and what the boss is doing? Those are glamourous support roles.

It saddens me that Riot settled on the "...no clue how to fix it, so let's just remove it" solution.
did you expect better? Thats exactly why they changed Karma. They said they couldn't balance her for mid AND support. Can't balance? Deleted.


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Robot Beat Rally

Senior Member

11-21-2013

I, for one, am very excited about these changes. I just wanted to voice my support, and even if the first month or two is a little rough, as long as you keep tweaking and get it right I will be stoked.

My only worry is that some will be quickly tweaked to perfect balance and others will be left forgotten (as often happens), but I have faith in you guys, and from the sound of it you guys are going to get pretty gnarly with it being preseason.... Keep them changes coming!

GL HF!


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Twign Barries

Junior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by A sleazebag View Post
Ratios read iffy on the patchnotes but I don't think the support AP ratio nerfs are completely unreasonable.

Have you ever seen a full AP Sona or Janna? They are fearsome especially in ARAM.
I think I speak for most people when I say that Riot shouldn't balance champions around ARAM, and that comparatively, nobody really cares how OP something is in ARAM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djump View Post
Definitely just unreasonable rage downvotes. You are rocking it Morello. We're super excited about the new season 4 support overhaul and can't wait to try it out!

I have a new respect for you Morello. I was trying to explain this same thing to someone raging on the new community forums (link here: http://community.na.leagueoflegends....-a-sona-lover#) and I'm amazed by peoples willingness to ignore logic and calmly presented reasonable explanations when they decide they don't like something. I don't know how you handle such a torrent of such people all the time. Well done. Bravo!
This thread isn't complaining about the support overhaul. It's complaining about the significant nerfs to support archetype champions; specifically Lulu, Sona, Soraka, and Janna.


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JevelFaithful

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanra View Post
I think I get it now. Yes, mages are going to be picked more often as support, but then again, most of them have already been kicked out of mid lane by assassins. This whole change to support is actually intended to make mages viable picks again. Right? Right???
It's made to give the support playstyle (not designated-kill lane) some money to allow them to build things. They also are mostly focussed on keeping a balance between support-class and utility-focussed-mage-class characters.

I think if the meta starts to have carry-assassin duo lanes. that's another business. And it might encourage it or not change a thing. Unless mages and supports are able to defend against those assassins.


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Raptamei

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmlinden7 View Post
What's stopping you from releasing items that have 0 combat stats but very strong actives that solo laners have no incentive to buy (build path, lack of stats)?
I discussed this with Xypherous a while ago. He said it would cause too much snowballing because the winning team gets an extra button with which to stomp the losing team.

I don't entirely agree, because it can also allow the losing team to bait out the winning team's actives and then use their own correctly for a short power boost to get back into the game (cfr nitrous in a racing game). Xyph's beef with actives does apply to League of Legends because it has no tactical actives whatsoever, only "press me to get more powerful" actives.