Bye Bye Supports

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gsai

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Sure - it's true this stuff is pretty complex and difficult. Does the short-term Black Cleaver issue (that we then fixed) mean we shouldn't have made the changes at all? That doesn't seem like a good trade-off to me.

If the worries are true, then we'll address it to make sure it's not permanent.
There are plenty of S3 issues you never fixed. Several junglers like Mundo and Maokai just stayed garbage the entire season because you just forgot about them.


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OverClawked

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsai64 View Post
There are plenty of S3 issues you never fixed. Several junglers like Mundo and Maokai just stayed garbage the entire season because you just forgot about them.
And then there's Yi who was viable for about a month after his rework (outside of low ELO)
And then he's gone.
And then there's Alistar.
And Galio.
And Garen (Even though he got a buff?)
There are so many champs that Riot just did not deal with this season.
It's saddening.


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Kildyu71

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me speak to this a little;
EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?
It's just unreasonable rage downvotes.

Here's how I see these changes in comparison to S3:

SUPPORT CHAMPS WHO WILL NOW BUY SUPPORT ITEMS:
- Ability to support: VASTLY IMPROVED (because so many more items)
- Ability to deal damage: NO CHANGE (worse AP ratios, but more items = tankiness = more spell rotations before escape)

SUPPORT CHAMPS WHO WILL NOW BUY AP DAMAGE ITEMS:
- Ability to support: NO CHANGE (the AP will bring their utility back to S3 levels)
- Ability to deal damage: VASTLY IMPROVED (worse AP ratios, but so many more AP items it will overcome the worse AP ratios BY FAR)

So yeah, support champs will now have more options available to them as far as build path, and while these changes do not make supports do MORE supporting AND MORE damage, it's certainly not less of each (or even either one).

Will they be >= AP mids who go down to play the support role at *dealing damage*? No... and they shouldn't be (because they typically bring a lot more utility than AP mids)... So it's fine. I think people just wanted supports to become godly/OP (huge damage and huge utility), but that's not the purpose. In S3, a good support could still be extremely useful in teamfights with very little gold/items. Now with more gold and more items, my Lulu will be EVEN BETTER! Is her level 1-3 slightly worse? Yeah. So what. I can wait to make my massive impact a little later in the game.

I appreciate all of these changes. Overall, the true supports will realize just how impactful these changes will be for them. Well done! I'm excited to try them out!


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dyfrgi

Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
When Lulu and Janna could lane and get gold she pushed Annie out of mid lane - these characters have gone insane with normal gold multiple times when allowed to solo lane. Now we COULD see a world where one of these characters can solo and we won't have to gut it - one definite advantage.

These characters should be about SUPPORT. If they're about damage, they're not support at all - they're mages.
Janna could solo lane and get gold last week. I've seen people do it successfully in both Silver and Challenger. One of my friends has a 90% win record with her solo. Now, with that change to her Q damage? I'm not sure anymore. She depends on always being able to get away while split pushing and her Q damage is a definite part of that - can't chase someone if they keep knocking you up and dealing a bunch of damage to you.

So it's pretty hard not to see nerfs when a playstyle on a character is probably dead. AP Janna is probably unplayable now.


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Stevev45

Senior Member

11-21-2013

I just don't want to see you destroy mages in an attempt to make the supports you just gutted look better.

Also, supports don't have to do 90% less damage than mages to be called supports. 20-30% less scaling damage with higher base damage would have been fine, and made supports more fun.


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Sefam

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by fieryfate View Post
Meh, in my experience, nobody, absolutely nobody, bothers to support in Dota 2's solo queue. And since Dota 2's matchmaking is terrible, it's difficult to get good matchups containing people willing to fill the support role. The number of times I've played against 5-carry teams in Dota 2 is astounding.

LoL is different because most players follow the meta more strictly, to the point that someone invariably ends up supporting in 90% of games. That does make it frustrating to play roles that we don't feel like playing at that time, but I guess it's a trade-off that comes with better matchmaking.
I don't know. The community I've encountered in Silver 1 is way worst than the people I play with or against currently in Dota 2. I get people who cry and rage as soon as their team gives first blood, and ADC players are extremely entitled with their wards/gold and everything that you are "supposed" to do.


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Red Ryu

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Lol massive down votes on Morelos first post.

Happened with Sivir saying she needed a range buff but then had the highest win rate of adcs.

Stay classy GD.


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Sefam

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Ryu View Post
Lol massive down votes on Morelos first post.

Happened with Sivir saying she needed a range buff but then had the highest win rate of adcs.

Stay classy GD.
GD Proz know what they're talking about.


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Regulas

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Summary of GD complaints right now:

OMG! I have a vague understanding of the changes without actually knowing how the heavily tested dynamics work! God dmntRiot! my lack of understanding clearly means you screwed up bigtime you idiot dunces!.


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Rahonavis

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lajinn5 View Post
R.I.P in peace AP Bruiser Taric, I will miss you
You can do it even better now with his new kit. Stuff is scaling off armor instead of AP?