Bye Bye Supports

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Mage Lord Nelber

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So you want all supports to turn into mages? Because that's what damage on these characters makes (and then you just nuke with them like AP mids).
how about higher base starts like hp and armor/resistances for supports? shouldn't they be beefy and able to take a hit for their carries, rather then stay out of fights and pray they don't get overwhelmed (which is much easier with this patch)? or do you just truly not know how to define the "support" role?


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djump

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Senior Recruiter

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?
Definitely just unreasonable rage downvotes. You are rocking it Morello. We're super excited about the new season 4 support overhaul and can't wait to try it out!

I have a new respect for you Morello. I was trying to explain this same thing to someone raging on the new community forums (link here: http://community.na.leagueoflegends....-a-sona-lover#) and I'm amazed by peoples willingness to ignore logic and calmly presented reasonable explanations when they decide they don't like something. I don't know how you handle such a torrent of such people all the time. Well done. Bravo!


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Sefam

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

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Originally Posted by fieryfate View Post
FYI, Madlife is the name of a Korean pro player who plays support for CJ Entus Frost.

Dota supports are very different from LoL supports in two main ways. First, creep pulling and neutral stacking allows supports to gain gold and exp. You can't creep pull in LoL so that's out of the question. Secondly, and leading on from the previous point, the existence of creep pulling makes trilanes viable, meaning that you can have two supports in the same lane as a carry. This makes laning a little more exciting because there's much more going on in a 3v3 lane compared to 2v2, and two supports can kill a carry while one alone can't. Again, this has not taken off in LoL although trilanes might be a possibility with the new support items.

Aside from that, Dota simply doesn't have a lot of "traditional supports" in the sense that LoL does. Most supports in Dota are designed similar to the mage supports like Annie - Lina, Lion, Shendelzare, Tidehunter, and Earthshaker come to mind. The few Dota heroes that are similar to LoL's traditional supports would be Witch Doctor, Omniknight, and Shadow Priest, but these 3 are no less of a support than the others.

As an Omniknight main, and now a Janna main, I don't see an issue with supports in LoL lacking an "oomph". If I cared about having flashy high damage spells, I would have gone mid instead, like everyone else who calls "solo mid" at the start of every Dota game.

LoL and Dota aren't simply a battle of mechanics. Controlling vision and using it to outmanoeuvre your opponents is just as important. Outsmarting your opponent to force them into bad fights can be equally satisfying and arguably contributes the most to any battle that is won.
And I agree with all your points.

But I still think supporting in League just lacks the oomph it has in Dota. As much as you can just call mid, if I solo-queue in Silver, people will always call mid and top first, and that often leaves me playing support because that's the only role I seem to be competent at. But it's also the most frustrating role as you cannot do anything but be aggressive and do mistakes if your ADC is not good.

Someone has to play support. Support is a very important role, but I don't feel it's that great in pub games. The champions I can play well in organized scrims don't work in pubs and more often than not leave a bad taste in my mouth.


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fieryfate

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sefam View Post
And I agree with all your points.

But I still think supporting in League just lacks the oomph it has in Dota. As much as you can just call mid, if I solo-queue in Silver, people will always call mid and top first, and that often leaves me playing support because that's the only role I seem to be competent at. But it's also the most frustrating role as you cannot do anything but be aggressive and do mistakes if your ADC is not good.

Someone has to play support. Support is a very important role, but I don't feel it's that great in pub games. The champions I can play well in organized scrims don't work in pubs and more often than not leave a bad taste in my mouth.
Meh, in my experience, nobody, absolutely nobody, bothers to support in Dota 2's solo queue. And since Dota 2's matchmaking is terrible, it's difficult to get good matchups containing people willing to fill the support role. The number of times I've played against 5-carry teams in Dota 2 is astounding.

LoL is different because most players follow the meta more strictly, to the point that someone invariably ends up supporting in 90% of games. That does make it frustrating to play roles that we don't feel like playing at that time, but I guess it's a trade-off that comes with better matchmaking.


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NiceDynamite24

Junior Member

11-21-2013

I think another result of this is that traditional supports with utility ap scaling are going to become more viable in mid lane, like ap nami/lulu because they provide damage and utility


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Havenstance

Member

11-21-2013

Well Morello, I hope your happy dude... Soraka got that nerf you so DESPRATELY wanted her to get. You totally ruined this game, its not even worth playing anymore. First you make an unplayable game because your servers can't handle the amount of people playing. Horrid FPS drops and massive lag spikes. Because you are to cheap to FIX IT. Honestly though if Riot needs to save a few bucks they could always send you to the unemployment line. Might be the best business move they've made yet. Anyway congratulations on your broken game, Trinkets are worthless don't have any use. No oracles means teemo is a nightmare. Your logic makes no sense, what I saw was a Sona that could have used a nerf not the entire support class. As for making the trinkets to give wards... yeah if I'm not a support im not warding the map its not my job. You guys need to start listening to your player base. Gee you know the ones who PAY YOUR WAGES. If it weren't for us you wouldn't have a job. So set your personal feelings aside and listen to us for once. You forced a brand new 3v3 map down our throats that none of us wanted. Now that we are stuck with it its still not even out of Beta and it's been almost two years since you released the trash to begin with. we repeatedly asked for the old one back just to be told oh the server wont support a new mode. so then you throw out ARAM mode... Which is still broken, The point here is that your making it crystal clear that you don't have a care in the world about the people playing your game, the people paying your wages. Your just going to do whatever you can to ruin someone's day. But honestly I don't feel morello should be up here talking about any changes or any classes or anything for that matter. He's probably one of the worst players NA.


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OverClawked

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarsOfTomorrow View Post
Right now I see it as, "Hey Soraka, why are you building AP? NEED MOAR WARDS!" And said support hangs their head and wanders off to get more wards. All she wanted to do was have stronger heals to feel like she mattered in a fight.
My heart goes out to that Soraka <3


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My Pet Dinosaur

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenstance View Post
As for making the trinkets to give wards... yeah if I'm not a support im not warding the map its not my job.
This right here.

You are a terrible player if this is how you play the game. Teamwork is key, and you clearly want none of it.


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Adaptation Hime

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me speak to this a little;

In the initial reveal, we were talking about the new gold flow for supports - more gold, items and general "agency" being something long overdue for Support characters (in this context, Soraka, Sona, Lulu, Taric, Janna and Nami) who have been overworked and underfed despite actual impact or performance.

We now have a world of characters who have been only balanced to have no gold now having quite a bit of gold! This comes with a few truths:

1) The old support balance base lines no longer are balanced and valid, anymore than if we increased Marksmen, Fighter or Mage gold by the same amount would be.

2) Supports have been previously defined as "characters who function well with no gold." Now that's no longer the case, overtuned/undertuned mages (if we'd not made changes) is a bad identity. By introducing support scaling, supports become MORE supportive through gold - either through acquisition of active items or AP scaling on utility. This is all done specifically to not have AP Mages and Supports fight each other in a raw numbers perspective, and instead provide supports with scaling that fits their role of helping people and working with their team.

3) Looking at these changes, seeing "NERFS" as the takeaway is...well, I don't know how to put it....insane. One of the patch notes could be "increased income by 3000-6000 gold per game". We actually were very conservative on these champion changes in an effort to protect supports from obsoletion (and will react aggressively if that becomes the case in practice).

A glance at the patch notes can read like a nerf, if you ignore the context or associated changes. AP Mids may have additional viability bottom lane, though our changes are specifically to bulwark against that.

Support needed satisfaction, a more fleshed-out identity of "helper," and a place in the game that's real and valid. That's the entire premise of the preseason support changes.

EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?
I upvoted, and I completely agree with your reasoning behind changing the supports around. You have to remember a large portion of these players are either highly unskilled, have very little understand of what supports are for, and or adolescents that will not grasp it ever. Don't let this get you down morello


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SoraNoChinchira

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaptation Hime View Post
I upvoted, and I completely agree with your reasoning behind changing the supports around. You have to remember a large portion of these players are either highly unskilled, have very little understand of what supports are for, and or adolescents that will not grasp it ever. Don't let this get you down morello
I'm glad someone besides me understand. Sigh. I Feel bad for people at Riot sometimes :/