Bye Bye Supports

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Kaokentake

Member

11-21-2013

whats stopping me from going "support renek", enjoying the fact that my toplane jax is getting full 100% toplane gold flow, and I with the new support gold am getting pretty much just as much gold as my toplane jax


so let me get this straight. now my team will have TWO buff as hell overpowered snowbally toplaner champs with insane gold amounts... how can that be stopped? HOW CAN THAT BE STOPPED???


seriously. support renek will be the meta (after annie/fiddle are banned of course)


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TapWaterRulez

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gespens View Post
I'd like to make one point; It isn't direct damage that supports bring. Support annie is good because she causes the enemy to LOSE damage and you get an initiative on them. There there was a champion who could deal a .5 second stun every 1.5 seconds, they would be the most powerful support, even if they did zero damage on everything else.

The ability to lock down people is a VERY valuable skill.

Likewise, Soraka was a very powerful support in early S2, because she could reverse damage and cancel combos, even though Sona still had her stun. Janna was also a powerful support as was Ali. all because they could either stop damage, reverse damage, or something along those lines. Hell, Taric got nerfed because his W made him tanky and his stun allowed his team/carry to do a lot of damage to a person, or win trades because they were an auto ahead.

Damage is important, but so is the power of CC. This may be why things such as stuns don't get utility scaling, but slows do.

I do appreciate that, and that's why i made mention of some "golden ratio" (granted I don't have a good way to define it)

Yes, the counter to every champ in the game but olaf is cc, and yes giving your teammates extra ehp at a moments notice is very powerful in itself.

But keep in mind we have a meta where the top strategy is to funnel money to the adc, as they are building pure damage. Maybe this is more to say that Riot hasn't done a good job of having utility scale with items. Maybe this is the first step in them doing it.

I guess the point that has caused everyone grief here is: Until now, too much of the item buying experience has been to acquire either offense or defense, not utility. Yes there is cdr and some active items, but we're all a bit too conditioned to a game where we think "I need more gold to either deal or defend against more damage"

EDIT:
Going to bed, but I thought of a good way to put it. The vast majority of games I hear either "You do no damage" or "You need to build tanky". But hearing something along the lines of "We need more utility" (aside from asking for some hard cc) comes once in a great few number of games.


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Axium

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaokentake View Post
whats stopping me from going "support renek", enjoying the fact that my toplane jax is getting full 100% toplane gold flow, and I with the new support gold am getting pretty much just as much gold as my toplane jax


so let me get this straight. now my team will have TWO buff as hell overpowered snowbally toplaner champs with insane gold amounts... how can that be stopped? HOW CAN THAT BE STOPPED???


seriously. support renek will be the meta (after annie/fiddle are banned of course)
I think you're kinda overestimating the amount of gold that supports are going to be getting. You'd also have to go down the utility mastery tree to get full use of the free gold. Somehow, I don't see a utility-tree Renekton, with half the normal gold of a solo-laner, being too "OP".


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fieryfate

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoraNoChinchira View Post
I like how you put this - this is my 2 cents on this issue.

The statement 'damage is too coveted a stat' is absolutely correct, and it also has a more fundamental issue: EVERYONE WANTS TO BE IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

Everyone wants to be the one to go 20/0 in a game and have an amazing KDA. No one wants to be that 1/0/20 person, why? Because 'hey, look at my super awesome cool stats of awesomesauce.' Yeah, that is why.

It is funny how people say 'I use annie/fiddlesticks because good ratios for AP.' Is this the reason why they dominated as 'support (with zyra)' during season 3? No, I do not believe so. It was the CC they brought to bot lane. Most pro teams (as some people have talked about pro players) as it stands before patch, get a Ruby Sightstone and MAYBE MAYBE boots. Most of the time most of their money is going to wards/oracles, etc. Consumeables. CC wins teamfights. Otherwise it is a f*** fest of 'who kills who fastest' and doesn't win you the game. The utility scaling of supports I think will compliment what pro teams want and will eventually trickle down in solo queue as locking up an entire team in teamfights or being able to mitigate someone responding back to you in a 2v2+ situations much better than the possibility of being blown up before you can even do anything.

I Think some people want to turn this into an arms race, which is neither healthy or in the best interest of players. Most people want to find a way of surviving and not being dead for a good portion of a game. CC enhances that.

One other thing, the reason why there are (pre-patch) 4 gold streams was to enhance gold flow where it should go - namely the 2 carries (APC/ADC), and a top laner, jungler. In bot lane, you want your carry to get minion kills, champion kills, etc to get them fed. I"m sorry, but if you have 2 Magic dealers that are 20/1 and only one adc with 0/2/16, guess what? You are going to be faced with a wall of MR and then where will you be? Furthermore, adc's take out towers and objectives faster (by auto attacking) than other classes of characters, such as towers, dragon, baron, etc. They won't do much damage if their "support" is instead taking everything from them.

Also, with everything I said, I think supporting is a very undervalued position in this game, and this dicussion is a proponent of this undervaluedness that supporting has had.

Give it some time, just like any other big changes in league this will pan out. It isn't even live yet. -_______________-

Goodness.

(Oh, and feel free to downvote as it will happen.)

EDIT: The poster of above me gets it, and probably says it better than I do.
I think you've missed the point of this thread as well as the point of the post you quoted. The complaints are not about the support ROLE being away from the spotlight; they're about the support CHAMPIONS being displaced by AP mages in that role.

As a support main, I have no qualms being away from the spotlight, and neither do I care that I end most games with the least kills in my team. My proudest game ever was my 0/0/36 Sona, which I'll take over a 36/0/0 game with any other carry, and I'm sure that most of the self-professed support mains in this thread will agree with me.

The whole point is that these support champions that we've grown to love are being outclassed at exactly what they're supposed to specialise in - supporting. This is a completely different situation from others who don't like seeing their one favourite champion nerfed (see any Riven nerf thread and you'll know what I mean). We're talking about an entire class of champions being replaced in their roles.


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Dreamed

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You're comparing characters who are toxic and unhealthy for years instead of big preseason changes; this is the response to EXACTLY one of those problems (supports feel bad and are ward-*****es), and just like in Season 2, (League of X doesn't exist now, right?) we'll do what we need to.

"We'll buff the numbers on the support scaling rations in mostly non-damage ways, or nerfs extreme duo-lane offenders if needed/appropriate." That's the plan, basically - it's simple, and by necessity is reactive. What we've done here IS the proactive approach like giving them non-damage scaling and not going hard on the numbers tweaks.
What about adding a new type of scaling? There's Attack Damage (basic physical damage) and Ability Power (basic magic damage).
Well how about a new one which champions labeled as support have scaling with.
Something along the lines of Mysticism (utility scaling).
A chain of items could be released that have Mysticism bonuses and support abilities could be given Mysticism ratios.

Example:
Farseer's Imbrace
+250 Health, +300 Mana, +10 Mysticism

Lets say Sona buys this item.
She buys this item for some tankiness and mana for spell upkeep. With Mysticism her utility can now scale without having to buy Ability Power how it will be soon.
Hymn of Valor could give a bit more bonus attack damage and ability power with large amounts of Mysticism. Staccato would be unchanged.
Aria of Perseverance could would give more bonus armor and magic resistance with Mysticism. Also the damage reduction from Diminuendo could be increased. High Mysticism would lead to higher damage reduction. Could be capped around 35% or so.
Song of Celerity would give a larger movement speed bonus and Tempo would be given larger movement speed slows. High Mysticism could have the potential to slow enemies by 60% or more!

This is just something I thought of rather than having a confrontation between utility supports and utility mages being in the support role.

This would stil allow utility mages to go botlane. They would bring decent damage and small crowd control effects or heals to the team with Ability Power purchases.

Utility supports can now be in the botlane without having to purchase ability power to have their utility crowd control and healing spells to be effective. Now they can build Mysticism items which would scale their utility.

So you have the option of utility mage supports who bring damage and small heals/crowd control versus pure utility supports who bring very little damage and high heals/crowd control/utility.

Thoughts?

EDIT: This wouldn't affect any support abilities containing hard crowd control. Only the utility aspects of heals, slows, hastens, buffs, etc.


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Raptzchel

Junior Member

11-21-2013

This is just my opinion, but I can't see these changes causing supports to disappear. Having utility is something a team will always need, and supports are (and will still be) the kings of utility. While these changes may leave some supports temporarily underpowered, we need to remember: This is preseason. This is going to be a time where balance becomes extremely shaky. Riot has already given us their word that if these changes leave supports too weak, they WILL be buffed.


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Script Error

Member

11-21-2013

I've been filtering through this thread and i have yet to see anyone bring up this argument. lets take a moment and accept that extra gold to get ap scaling is WORTH on a support. but besides gold, supports have another resource that they have yet to get buffed on. and that is, how the hell is a support gonna carry that shiny deathcap? with the way items are getting pumped out. let say, trinket was a pink ward, you still need. the philo stone thing, the sight stone, boots, one of the other 2 gold generations ( or else you are mssing out on free gold), spare pink wards, and a locket if your jungler didnt pick it up. even if we do for a moment consider not needing either a gp10 or locket, countless people have stated that supports need 100 ap to get to their old stats. the closest item I see available is a athenes or a morellonomicon. and they only offer 70 ap each. the only buff i see to supports is that you dont need to have a stack of green wards with you any more, but that is hardly a buff. of course, if the team needed anythign else from the support, you dont have the inventory for it. this is also assuming the support didnt pick up the oracles lens, and if so, the stack of pink wards is even more crucial.

TL;DR :
supports just dont have the inventory to carry extra ap, if you want to define support as a "helper". i believe this will stop the utility mages from coming to bot lane due to the sheer number of useless items you need that hinders your item slots. but supports are getting hit because of this.


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Raptoreyes

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TapWaterRulez View Post
This whole problem is so easily summed up with a more basic issue:

Damage is too coveted a stat in this game.

Damage helps you accomplish everything faster. You takes camps, objectives, clear waves, and kill champions faster when you have more damage. I can have a 5 second cc, but it won't help kill dragon, baron, or a structure faster.

Sure a team of 5 squishies can lose to a coordinated team that has tanky characters, but just dropping your opponents hp bars fast enough will deter them from fighting you altogether. Also, building tanky in lane helps you to not lose it, but basically kills your chances of snowballing if you're doing well. If a team has the upper hand, the common strategy is to buy more damage.

I suggest Riot does more careful study on the golden ratio of damage to utility (as in, how much cc, mid-fight bonus ehp, etc. is best before just getting more straight damage is ideal).

OR, maybe they need to increase the cost of items that increase damage and decrease the cost of defense.
I throw my full weight and support behind this very statement. The ratios of how much gold it takes to buy damage is too low and damage is rarely proportional to other stats in game in terms of how desired it is. This is especially true of low to mid ELO "where the overwhelming BULK of the player base is". Now I know you at Riot do not want a repeat of Season 2 where everybody just farmed and ignored inter lane action. There are BETTER ways to promote lane action aside from more damage and lower survivability.

*Keep lowering the last hit gold until the desire to fight early (when the jungler is not around) is proportional to the desire farm so we see a mixture of both and not a desire to sacrifice Late or early game to an enforced play style.

*Wards being limited is a good start on lane aggression, but ONLY for assassins and Junglers. Junglers are one thing but assassin play styles quickly become TOXIC to all other roles in the game, if even a pinch too much damage is given to them. (this is especially true of Assassins with nothing but auto lock skills that lead with a silence like Talon or Akali on live where building tanky is the only defense,). Riot you have the numbers how many people who WERE NOT bot lane supports actually took the Utility Tree in season 3?? I am guessing after the first month VERY FEW. Everybody either went full offense with some minor pts in defense or went full defense with 5-9 pts in Utility. This is not healthy if the utility tree cannot be taken because every non-assassin/jungler must pack in the armor/hp early JUST TO AVOID massive feeding.

** Assassin power curves need to be different especially with limited wards. Some power should be shifted to the mid game via skills on the assassin kits that do not really activate until certain item breakpoints are met. (without it looking heavey handed)

** Damage over time builds should be much better then burst builds. Burst beyond a moderate amount is TOXIC and season 3 with the armor purchased BEFORE the mana regen and the CDR (which makes characters fun to play was an example of WHY early burst is toxic as it crowds out every other purchase but Resistance and HP to the detriment of character development. Those like me that insisted on having fun stats (mana regen and CDR) early had to put up with dying more which makes team morral just break down. Assassins with redunkulos burst are the problem here. Buff CDR and Mana Regen and nerf items and early game mods that are basically taken to maximize burst. Being slowly driven out of lane by repeatedly being outplayed by a build with damage over time from CDR and mana regen is a lot easier to swallow then some bull **** high burst build that kills you before you even really understand what was happening to you.

Riot fix this season 3 nonsense that forces us to build boring stats early to the exclusion of all else. Assassins crowded out the fun stats from being bought when they could be enjoyed... in the lane phase. Fix this nonsense.


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Raptoreyes

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptzchel View Post
This is just my opinion, but I can't see these changes causing supports to disappear. Having utility is something a team will always need, and supports are (and will still be) the kings of utility. While these changes may leave some supports temporarily underpowered, we need to remember: This is preseason. This is going to be a time where balance becomes extremely shaky. Riot has already given us their word that if these changes leave supports too weak, they WILL be buffed.
Oh sure but how many months will Riot spin its wheels trying to decide for sure, that things are stupidly Under Powered. As for utility TANKS can fill in for Utility until Riot Wakes the heck up to how bad things are given the piss poor numbers we see for support scaling. The stun meta will likely come back due to supports being so weak ESPECIALLY among the bulk of the player base who ONLY adopted the support meta with the most reluctatnt unhappy grudging attitude. Pros are payed but Riot needs to pay the mid and low tiers for their time with actual FUN.

The player base has put up with this awful duo lane support meta where the support gets nothing long enough. The changes for season 4 do not go far enough to hammer the nails down on this coffen so we will see lots of anne and Fiddle Sticks until supports actually get real value for the new money they can spend. What we see now is Riot pretending to give value and the playerbase is far from fooled by this pretending.


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Miirik

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So you want all supports to turn into mages? Because that's what damage on these characters makes (and then you just nuke with them like AP mids).
Umm yeah kind of

I enjoyed taking nami mid when she was actually able to do it
Same with sona, and lulu, and karma

Karma can still do it to a degree, though she finds better use at top now rather mid since she abuses melees so badly.