Bye Bye Supports

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Gespens

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pea Sin View Post
The only reason that pros will be playing the supports who are getting nerfed in this patch in two months will be if they get buffed.
Because you speak for them, obviously.

Also, you actually just validated my original statement.


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falkenjeff

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This will be rough on launch - please go find abuse cases! Go try to do traditional support.
With all these changes, and as a jungle main, I just want to say: no thanks.

I am not one of the people who is going to try to do "traditional support", and I am not going to find "abuse cases" for supports, I am going to find "abuse cases" for non-supports in a support role. My Evelynn/Warwick/Jinx/etc is going to go to bot lane and kill things.

And bronze/silver is going to be dominated by "supports" such as those, just completely pub-stomping.

The only exceptions are maybe Leona/Thresh because of how overloaded their kits are. The rest? Thanks for feeding me, Soraka/Sona/Lulu/Nami, I'm glad you exist to be a noob trap in low ELO.

Even just Trynd support (as well as Jinx). Those will become "thanks for leaving your lane for 2 seconds, I had enough gold for a BF sword, so your turret is gone now" supports.

I see no reason to play traditional supports, and I'm glad you're going to keep it that way (at least in low ELO).


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Happy Firetrucks

Member

11-21-2013

Calling it:
Support Veigar is going to remain insane.


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MalevolentVergil

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

1) We want to avoid a world where mages invalidate supports. Again, we'll be aggressive here. Maybe some other characters have too much (I tend to think so), maybe some mages go bottom too.
It will be really bad if you will nerf mages only because you broke supports and made them non-viable because of so called "buffs" to (f)utility.


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TapWaterRulez

Senior Member

11-21-2013

This whole problem is so easily summed up with a more basic issue:

Damage is too coveted a stat in this game.

Damage helps you accomplish everything faster. You takes camps, objectives, clear waves, and kill champions faster when you have more damage. I can have a 5 second cc, but it won't help kill dragon, baron, or a structure faster.

Sure a team of 5 squishies can lose to a coordinated team that has tanky characters, but just dropping your opponents hp bars fast enough will deter them from fighting you altogether. Also, building tanky in lane helps you to not lose it, but basically kills your chances of snowballing if you're doing well. If a team has the upper hand, the common strategy is to buy more damage.

I suggest Riot does more careful study on the golden ratio of damage to utility (as in, how much cc, mid-fight bonus ehp, etc. is best before just getting more straight damage is ideal).

OR, maybe they need to increase the cost of items that increase damage and decrease the cost of defense.


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Nimir Rah

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

This will be rough on launch - please go find abuse cases! Go try to do traditional support. Report your experience. We've cleared out our days to marathon a bit for less useful anecdotal evidence from our experiences. See what snaps that internal tests and a limited player pool can't catch.
Why? It feels like there isn't a point.

I've been in a bot lane with an Annie or Fiddles as it is now even without the nerf to supports and the result is always the same: my carry dies because we get nuked or poked out. That's BEFORE these changes. It always felt more like a disadvantage simply because I was playing Sona or Nami against an Annie support at bot than an actual help. I felt like a liability. Now I feel like I HAVE to play these mid mages just to support my team.


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Wezz

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Letsgetcooking View Post
Now it's time for the important question...
Do you think support Naut will see worlds?
I'm surprised CC: The champion hasn't yet been used as CC: The role. Very surprised.


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Digitality

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Watch as we heavily curb your base skill power to give you the scaling you think you wanted! You'll now scale with the game but be effectively no better off!

This has the added effect of making supports more snowbally. Before your support was pretty consistently at a particular power level at all stages of the game, whether they were ahead or behind. Now they'll be heavily gapped and snowballing the carry lane will be worse than it already is.


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Gespens

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TapWaterRulez View Post
This whole problem is so easily summed up with a more basic issue:

Damage is too coveted a stat in this game.

Damage helps you accomplish everything faster. You takes camps, objectives, clear waves, and kill champions faster when you have more damage. I can have a 5 second cc, but it won't help kill dragon, baron, or a structure faster.

Sure a team of 5 squishies can lose to a coordinated team that has tanky characters, but just dropping your opponents hp bars fast enough will deter them from fighting you altogether. Also, building tanky in lane helps you to not lose it, but basically kills your chances of snowballing if you're doing well. If a team has the upper hand, the common strategy is to buy more damage.

I suggest Riot does more careful study on the golden ratio of damage to utility (as in, how much cc, mid-fight bonus ehp, etc. is best before just getting more straight damage is ideal).

OR, maybe they need to increase the cost of items that increase damage and decrease the cost of defense.
I'd like to make one point; It isn't direct damage that supports bring. Support annie is good because she causes the enemy to LOSE damage and you get an initiative on them. There there was a champion who could deal a .5 second stun every 1.5 seconds, they would be the most powerful support, even if they did zero damage on everything else.

The ability to lock down people is a VERY valuable skill.

Likewise, Soraka was a very powerful support in early S2, because she could reverse damage and cancel combos, even though Sona still had her stun. Janna was also a powerful support as was Ali. all because they could either stop damage, reverse damage, or something along those lines. Hell, Taric got nerfed because his W made him tanky and his stun allowed his team/carry to do a lot of damage to a person, or win trades because they were an auto ahead.

Damage is important, but so is the power of CC. This may be why things such as stuns don't get utility scaling, but slows do.


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SoraNoChinchira

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TapWaterRulez View Post
This whole problem is so easily summed up with a more basic issue:

Damage is too coveted a stat in this game.

Damage helps you accomplish everything faster. You takes camps, objectives, clear waves, and kill champions faster when you have more damage. I can have a 5 second cc, but it won't help kill dragon, baron, or a structure faster.

Sure a team of 5 squishies can lose to a coordinated team that has tanky characters, but just dropping your opponents hp bars fast enough will deter them from fighting you altogether. Also, building tanky in lane helps you to not lose it, but basically kills your chances of snowballing if you're doing well. If a team has the upper hand, the common strategy is to buy more damage.

I suggest Riot does more careful study on the golden ratio of damage to utility (as in, how much cc, mid-fight bonus ehp, etc. is best before just getting more straight damage is ideal).

OR, maybe they need to increase the cost of items that increase damage and decrease the cost of defense.
I like how you put this - this is my 2 cents on this issue.

The statement 'damage is too coveted a stat' is absolutely correct, and it also has a more fundamental issue: EVERYONE WANTS TO BE IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

Everyone wants to be the one to go 20/0 in a game and have an amazing KDA. No one wants to be that 1/0/20 person, why? Because 'hey, look at my super awesome cool stats of awesomesauce.' Yeah, that is why.

It is funny how people say 'I use annie/fiddlesticks because good ratios for AP.' Is this the reason why they dominated as 'support (with zyra)' during season 3? No, I do not believe so. It was the CC they brought to bot lane. Most pro teams (as some people have talked about pro players) as it stands before patch, get a Ruby Sightstone and MAYBE MAYBE boots. Most of the time most of their money is going to wards/oracles, etc. Consumeables. CC wins teamfights. Otherwise it is a f*** fest of 'who kills who fastest' and doesn't win you the game. The utility scaling of supports I think will compliment what pro teams want and will eventually trickle down in solo queue as locking up an entire team in teamfights or being able to mitigate someone responding back to you in a 2v2+ situations much better than the possibility of being blown up before you can even do anything.

I Think some people want to turn this into an arms race, which is neither healthy or in the best interest of players. Most people want to find a way of surviving and not being dead for a good portion of a game. CC enhances that.

One other thing, the reason why there are (pre-patch) 4 gold streams was to enhance gold flow where it should go - namely the 2 carries (APC/ADC), and a top laner, jungler. In bot lane, you want your carry to get minion kills, champion kills, etc to get them fed. I"m sorry, but if you have 2 Magic dealers that are 20/1 and only one adc with 0/2/16, guess what? You are going to be faced with a wall of MR and then where will you be? Furthermore, adc's take out towers and objectives faster (by auto attacking) than other classes of characters, such as towers, dragon, baron, etc. They won't do much damage if their "support" is instead taking everything from them.

Also, with everything I said, I think supporting is a very undervalued position in this game, and this dicussion is a proponent of this undervaluedness that supporting has had.

Give it some time, just like any other big changes in league this will pan out. It isn't even live yet. -_______________-

Goodness.

(Oh, and feel free to downvote as it will happen.)

EDIT: The poster of above me gets it, and probably says it better than I do.