Bye Bye Supports

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hidden Dragon

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-21-2013

@Morello: You really don't seem to get that a few % more slow or an extra 50 healing will never be comparable to the damage of an Annie or Zyra that has gold.

Death is the best form of crowd control. And if a support can carry by themselves, they'll be chosen over Sona/Nami/Soraka/Lul.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Happy Firetrucks

Member

11-21-2013

I'm just gonna go ahead and call it now:
Renekton "Support" and kill lanes are coming.
Suddenly so much easier to free farm and snowball when your enemy is dead.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Forbidden MA39

Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurosurgeonwolf View Post
AP mids are now going to replace these nerfed pieces of junk. What support even rushes AP instead of sightstone or a support item? And they scale SOOOOOO BADLY.

This is a horrific patch for supports.

Yeah, lets make the SINGLE MOST UNAPPEALING ROLE even more unappealing? ARE YOU JOKING ME?

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/node/8667
Why does a support have to be an AP based champ?

Attached Images
File Type: jpg lip.jpg (21.5 KB, 58 views)

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Axium

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swordior View Post
Thank you RIOT for understanding what a support truly is. As someone who has always been passionate about the support role in every game I ever play in, I can say that I agree that Supports are not supposed to be the heavy hitters on the team, but rather make their team better at what they do.
Reading through these posts has shown me that one of the biggest fears is that mages will come and replace typical supports do to them having both utility and damage. However, I would disagree with how the term utility is being used, based on my experience from this and other games. Crowd Control, or CC as it is called, I would argue is not utility at all.
CC is composed of things such as silence, stuns, roots, knock-ups, slows, polymorphs, suppressions, death, and more. All these CCís have a couple of things in common. One: They all target enemies rather than allies. Two: They all inhibit the enemyís ability to do things. In other words, they take away options from the enemy.
Utility, on the other hand, is composed of speed boosts, healing, shielding, vision, and more. These share two things in common as well. One: They all affect allies. Two: They all grant your team additional options and make them better at something.
Utility also offers something that CC does not, and that is it always has multiple scaling, especially now with these changes to supports. Utility has always had the advantage in that it scaled not only with what the support bought, but also with everything else his or her team members bought. For instance, if you heal someone with tanky stats, that health given back is multiplied by the targetís resistances. If you healed a damage dealer, that just increased how much damage that they in turn can dish out.
This is true for almost any utility given. Speed boost grant more room to initiate, fight in, flee with, or react with. Vision grants more time to respond to situations created by your opponents. CC can improvise some of these things, such as granting more time, but utility makes even CC better. Tibbers may stun a whole team for 1.5 seconds, but with utility from a support, Annie can always do it on her teamís terms. Or, that same utility could help dodge Tibbers in the first place, or recover from its initial blast.
Lux, Karma, and Ori. Where do they fit in your categorization? They offer the best of both worlds, and not one of them is receiving a support-nerf.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Piggies Go Moo

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden Dragon View Post
@Morello: You really don't seem to get that a few % more slow or an extra 50 healing will never be comparable to the damage of an Annie or Zyra that has gold.

Death is the best form of crowd control. And if a support can carry by themselves, they'll be chosen over Sona/Nami/Soraka/Lul.
He said that he would increase supports' utility if it was outshined by mages in bot lane. If you think that utility could never be buffed to the point of being better than the damage of annie and zyra, you're wrong. Just give the slows and healing ridiculously high base, and watch who wins bot lane. I'll give you a hint, look at all of season 2 and most of season 3 where utility supports beat out mage supports, until their utility was nerfed. An annie that starts with 50 AP bot lane wouldn't beat a janna buffed to the point of having a 300 health shield as a base value (even with no ap scaling). Annie would get wrecked.

So if you accept that utility can be buffed to the point of being better than damage for bot lane (and you'd be a moron if you didn't accept this), maybe you missed the part where he said they would scale the utility if it was outshined?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

fredblaze01

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Firetrucks View Post
I'm just gonna go ahead and call it now:
Renekton "Support" and kill lanes are coming.
Suddenly so much easier to free farm and snowball when your enemy is dead.
Sivir+Yi sivir+xin bot lane: fast and easy


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

cocacolalips

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Support needed satisfaction, a more fleshed-out identity of "helper," and a place in the game that's real and valid. That's the entire premise of the preseason support changes.

After that 'late game fantasy', you might want to take a look at the 'pvp fantasy', because right now support champions get molested by the whole roster in any semblance of duel no matter what they buy.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Gespens

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Cyrus View Post
And you forget that thousands of us tested it on the PBE for quite a while now. It's a stupid system that makes mages/bruisers replace traditional supports. There is no logic behind it, not even the usual level of strawman arguments, just outright nonsense.
I'll take Janna giving almost 100 bonus AD to the carry/bruiser and doing slightly less damage end game, than annie who gets about ~800 more damage on her whole rotation.

Just because you played it, doesn't mean it is going to be true. 90% of GD just copies the pros. If they are only playing Annie/Thresh/bruiser in bot lane after two months of Preseason, I'll film myself eating cardboard and upload it. Feel free to quote me on this.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rabbi Warrior

Junior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gespens View Post
I'll take Janna giving almost 100 bonus AD to the carry/bruiser and doing slightly less damage end game, than annie who gets about ~800 more damage on her whole rotation.

Just because you played it, doesn't mean it is going to be true. 90% of GD just copies the pros. If they are only playing Annie/Thresh/bruiser in bot lane after two months of Preseason, I'll film myself eating cardboard and upload it. Feel free to quote me on this.
The only reason that pros will be playing the supports who are getting nerfed in this patch in two months will be if they get buffed.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Raptoreyes

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Don't want to scale CC with AP at all. Might be tough for a couple characters (though they likely just scale better on HP/CDR).
Scaling with HP and CDR might be just the way to make support heals, shields and speed boosts have real teeth and be wanted over more damage from other pseudo supports. Lets use a couple of case examples.

Janna's shield (both the AD portion and the temp hp) could scale with her max hp by a percentage. Janna's shield gets X AP ratio + XX percent of her total max HP. Sejuani already partly scales from HP.

Taric's and Soraka's heals could scale based partly on their HP and partly on the amount of bonus CDR/ or armor or MR they have at some ratio that makes these skills powerful.

What I am trying to say Morello is that supports need scaling based on their HP/resistances as they want time enough to survive to cast these wonderful effects. Soraka's new infuse does give a clue but supports HATE building mana as mana regen works better AND it makes their characters squishy which is just a poor fit for a unit that needs to give their CD's time to tick down and needs to leave lane alone to ward.

If fed supports partly replace or help tanks so be it. Supports with HP/resistance scaling might partly displace tanks BUT tanks with the brace of the mountain will likely replace supports to bot lane so their roles would meet and blend. Best of all people do not complain about being a tank because the endgame fantasy of proving a hold down on the other teams DPS is rather nice but the endgame fantasy of providing a slightly stronger movement speed buff or shield ... much less so from the standpoint of human psychology.

Making supports scale with defensive stats also cuts down on the propensity to go roaming Alistar and just abandon bot lane in favor of setting up ganks in partnership with the jungler which you are right to fear happening with the current build Morello.

People hate doing little damage but it does not feel nearly as bad if thier skills scale off of stuff that will make them live much much longer. Supports have always had good skills draped on underfed paper thin bodies and THAT is why Soraka, Taric, Janna, might not be taken much this Pre season until changed to function as a halfway house between tank and mage (not as tanky as a tank but with damage people will hesitate to just arrogantly ignore).

Make no mistake you player base can see these changes and KNOW that supports will be underplayed until the utility scaling is either blasted WAY up or that supports become much more tanky. As weak as supports look right now you may have to do both. Let this post and others show you the way.