Bye Bye Supports

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Neo Cyrus

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirror View Post
Most blithely hypocritical post of the thread.
Any reply he gives is typically a strawman argument or an outright bold faced lie like that quote.

"Overtuned mages."

Yes because we see so many AP Sonas and AP Namis mid, right? Right? Did you see all those Sona and Nami bans in worlds? Holy **** better nerf those supports by 90%, oh wait they did, GJ.


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Gespens

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Senior Member

11-21-2013

ITT: People forgetting that the whole point of preseason is to have us as live testing for adjustment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Cyrus View Post
Any reply he gives is typically a strawman argument or an outright bold faced lie like that quote.

"Overtuned mages."

Yes because we see so many AP Sonas and AP Namis mid, right? Right? Did you see all those Sona and Nami bans in worlds? Holy **** better nerf those supports by 90%, oh wait they did, GJ.

Remember release Lulu, out poking every single mid, having arguably the best low cost wave clear, high utiility and one of the best kiters in the game that made Ashe jealous?

Or AP Janna, who is the single best siege champion in the game?

supports with high scaling tend to push out traditional mages from mid lane. If Sona had all her nerfs reverted and kept her current mechanics/bugfixes, she would probably be one of the best AP mids in the game. I mean, 480 damage poke at level 18 with 3 spells? 270 + .7 AP every few seconds to two targets? 3 second long auras after stance change? 100 more range on ult? Shorter ult cooldown?

Supports are mechanically the most overloaded champs in the game because they are not expected to have lots of gold. Every time a support has good stats to compete in solo lanes, they are played in solo lanes.

I think a few champs were hit a bit too hard (Taric, Sona, Soraka (though that is more because STARCALL NERFS HOLY ****)), but the changes themselves are fine.

I mean, I don't see the new gold income giving supports more than say... 350 AP. That is 1727.5 burst from annie, 5007.5 single target damage from fiddle. Annie is a kill lane type support, similar to Leona, while fiddle takes 5 seconds of you being cc locked, and him being casting for allthat damage (stun him and he loses an instant 1350 damage).

Wait for te actual season to start.


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Rabbi Warrior

Junior Member

11-21-2013

While I don't play a lot of support, I understand that right now Annie and Fiddledicks are being chosen instead of the more standard supports because they do more damage early, scale better, and bring the same amount of CC as other supports. With these new nerfs to the standard supports, Annie, Fiddledicks, and other utility mages are going to dominate the support role. I wouldn't mind support champions getting more gold, but the fact that Annie support has a great potential to deal the same amount of damage as a solo lane Annie concerns me deeply. Creating more gold income for bot lane and then nerfing every support champion is one of the least productive I've ever seen riot do. I am extremely nervous that because of these changes ADC is going to be unplayable, since instead of one AP assassin trying to kill you, you'll have two.

Instead of making a ton of slight buffs over the course of several months, don't you think it would be easier to see how supports would deal with more income and tone down their power if they're too OP? I think that's what everyone was expecting in the first place!


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Neo Cyrus

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gespens View Post
ITT: People forgetting that the whole point of preseason is to have us as live testing for adjustment
And you forget that thousands of us tested it on the PBE for quite a while now. It's a stupid system that makes mages/bruisers replace traditional supports. There is no logic behind it, not even the usual level of strawman arguments, just outright nonsense.


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fredblaze01

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Because that's unnecessary - other classes (mages, tanks) bring utility too. One could argue 3 second Fear is probably silly in its own right, though.
dat fiddle fear it's like time stopped forever an eternal pain. i love it cuz i play him jungle but hate to lane against him bot lane


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Hellioning

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gespens View Post
ITT: People forgetting that the whole point of preseason is to have us as live testing for adjustment
And here's our adjustment. We think the support champion changes where out of line.

I would have complained about it on the PBE forums, but apparently I don't qualify for that anymore. So I have to do it here.


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LucidFlux

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think some of this is that there ARE mages who have too high of a combination of damage and utility. I don't think it's incredibly important that characters like Orianna and Anivia need damage that is as high as many peers and game-changing utility. Maybe there's a chicken-and-egg thing here that's really frustrating - I can understand that.

The irony about this is that this is all intended to help support characters, specifically. The concerns and thoughts we have;

1) We want to avoid a world where mages invalidate supports. Again, we'll be aggressive here. Maybe some other characters have too much (I tend to think so), maybe some mages go bottom too. Remember support gold is not equal to solo lane/farm gold, it's just quite a bit more than "none."

2) Support players have felt like their impact matters less, they have an imbalance of responsibility/rewards/success metrics. We think giving them access to the power growth tools (and not making them do "kill you" things to get it) is a big win for this.

3) We want to define supports as helpers and team-players first. This is pretty tough when you have 4 years of them being defined as ward bots with no gold. Tanks differ than fighters and have lower damage - edge cases like J4 do exist here too. Sona might just be a mage labelled as a support (as her power contribution is lane damage/late game CC) - if so, we'll have to modify her to a damage-oriented scaling model or something. That is tunable, and this is not the last patch ever ever ever.

4) To make big changes like this is disruptive by its nature. Balance will be temporarily off. Expectations that we've had for characters will change. What will almost never result from fixing game problems is "we just gave you free power/buffs!" Those aren't good solutions to what are systemic problems, but I feel that the expectation is that somehow (that applies to reworks and stuff, too).

This will be rough on launch - please go find abuse cases! Go try to do traditional support. Report your experience. We've cleared out our days to marathon a bit for less useful anecdotal evidence from our experiences. See what snaps that internal tests and a limited player pool can't catch.

I think this disruption and uncertainty of the correctness of the details is more than worth the ability to bring supports into being first-class citizens with a unique identity. It's long overdue and is a pain that's existed for a long time. Just because something being in a bad state is known and comfortable doesn't mean it's better than taking it somewhere better that is a bit frightening and unknown to people.
Morello... Nothing supports harder than the enemy being dead... Damage is what kills the enemy.


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Myos1

Junior Member

11-21-2013

I don't know if this has been brought up already, but instead of making only the traditional supports utility scale with ap, why not stick a 4 point mastery in the utility tree that converts 25/50/75/100% ap into giving 10% per 100 ap bonus on non-damaging stats on skills. So for example you could run with a support Sion with a longer stun/better shield, and more healing on ult but sacrifice all your scaling ap damage. The traditional supports would be more utility minded mages till you put points into the mastery, and you wouldn't have to be worried about their ap ratios or utility being overpowering solo lane because they would have had to choose already if they want utility scaling or damage scaling with masteries.


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Sophitia

Senior Member

11-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think some of this is that there ARE mages who have too high of a combination of damage and utility. I don't think it's incredibly important that characters like Orianna and Anivia need damage that is as high as many peers and game-changing utility. Maybe there's a chicken-and-egg thing here that's really frustrating - I can understand that.

The irony about this is that this is all intended to help support characters, specifically. The concerns and thoughts we have;

1) We want to avoid a world where mages invalidate supports. Again, we'll be aggressive here. Maybe some other characters have too much (I tend to think so), maybe some mages go bottom too. Remember support gold is not equal to solo lane/farm gold, it's just quite a bit more than "none."

2) Support players have felt like their impact matters less, they have an imbalance of responsibility/rewards/success metrics. We think giving them access to the power growth tools (and not making them do "kill you" things to get it) is a big win for this.

3) We want to define supports as helpers and team-players first. This is pretty tough when you have 4 years of them being defined as ward bots with no gold. Tanks differ than fighters and have lower damage - edge cases like J4 do exist here too. Sona might just be a mage labelled as a support (as her power contribution is lane damage/late game CC) - if so, we'll have to modify her to a damage-oriented scaling model or something. That is tunable, and this is not the last patch ever ever ever.

4) To make big changes like this is disruptive by its nature. Balance will be temporarily off. Expectations that we've had for characters will change. What will almost never result from fixing game problems is "we just gave you free power/buffs!" Those aren't good solutions to what are systemic problems, but I feel that the expectation is that somehow (that applies to reworks and stuff, too).

This will be rough on launch - please go find abuse cases! Go try to do traditional support. Report your experience. We've cleared out our days to marathon a bit for less useful anecdotal evidence from our experiences. See what snaps that internal tests and a limited player pool can't catch.

I think this disruption and uncertainty of the correctness of the details is more than worth the ability to bring supports into being first-class citizens with a unique identity. It's long overdue and is a pain that's existed for a long time. Just because something being in a bad state is known and comfortable doesn't mean it's better than taking it somewhere better that is a bit frightening and unknown to people.
You act like for all 4 years supports have ONLY been played bot lane. This is very far from the truth. Supports have been going mid, top and even jungle (rarely, and as niche picks) since the dawn of the game. You wrecking their damage is only going to throw mages with high damage and high utility bot lane. If you're expecting anything else then I guess you get to rebalance like 90% of the mages in the game and reduce their CC. Or you know, you could just be a little less conservative with the support damage nerfs that you seem so apt to tack on patch after patch.


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Swordior

Junior Member

11-21-2013

Thank you RIOT for understanding what a support truly is. As someone who has always been passionate about the support role in every game I ever play in, I can say that I agree that Supports are not supposed to be the heavy hitters on the team, but rather make their team better at what they do.
Reading through these posts has shown me that one of the biggest fears is that mages will come and replace typical supports do to them having both utility and damage. However, I would disagree with how the term utility is being used, based on my experience from this and other games. Crowd Control, or CC as it is called, I would argue is not utility at all.
CC is composed of things such as silence, stuns, roots, knock-ups, slows, polymorphs, suppressions, death, and more. All these CCís have a couple of things in common. One: They all target enemies rather than allies. Two: They all inhibit the enemyís ability to do things. In other words, they take away options from the enemy.
Utility, on the other hand, is composed of speed boosts, healing, shielding, vision, and more. These share two things in common as well. One: They all affect allies. Two: They all grant your team additional options and make them better at something.
Utility also offers something that CC does not, and that is it always has multiple scaling, especially now with these changes to supports. Utility has always had the advantage in that it scaled not only with what the support bought, but also with everything else his or her team members bought. For instance, if you heal someone with tanky stats, that health given back is multiplied by the targetís resistances. If you healed a damage dealer, that just increased how much damage that they in turn can dish out.
This is true for almost any utility given. Speed boost grant more room to initiate, fight in, flee with, or react with. Vision grants more time to respond to situations created by your opponents. CC can improvise some of these things, such as granting more time, but utility makes even CC better. Tibbers may stun a whole team for 1.5 seconds, but with utility from a support, Annie can always do it on her teamís terms. Or, that same utility could help dodge Tibbers in the first place, or recover from its initial blast.