Bye Bye Supports

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Pazuzoo

Junior Member

11-20-2013

Granted, I don't play much support or bottom lane in general, but from what I see here the fix applies to a lane situation more so than to the support type champions, which may or may not be what is needed or intended.

It's not about "wanting to do big damage", but if you can throw something that brings some utility to laning and team fights as well as big damage, then why wouldn't you take that over a typical support?

Increased gold to a duo laner that doesn't CS only seems to provide more options for duo lane candidates to me, further obscuring the support type champions by giving hard scaling champs the opportunity to be in a duo lane that previously wouldn't have been as viable. Maybe that's the goal here, as it seems to create a lot more viable options, but I'm not sure support champs are the ones that benefit from it the most.

I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing though, maybe it's the direction that is intended here, and it really does seem to open up a lot of viable options. Considering that support generally seems to be the least desired role maybe it will alleviate some of that, opening up more options to people that need to play a non CS lane while still keeping support champs viable to those that play them well.


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Henry Plainview

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by EYO TEETO View Post
And as far as supports getting their AP ratios nerfed - Why are people complaining at ALL about this? Have you guys played support this season? 95% of the games that I played, I only built a sightstone, shurelya's, and boots. Notice my point? I didn't even build ANY AP at all. With the new gold income, now we actually have freedom to be more than just ward bots. We're actually FORCED to be more than ward bots, thanks to the ward cap. With the new gold, we now actually have the freedom to buy AP, AD, tank items, whatever we want.

Yes, the AP ratios have been nerfed, but the fact that we can actually AFFORD to buy AP far outweighs the fact that the ratios were nerfed.
Except you have to buy 100+ AP to match their current utility levels. So...


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If I were Jesus

Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by imweasel09 View Post
So uh, then what are you going to do about alistar?
I predict as an Alistar main that he will be fine, with the accessibility of CDR and HP in the new support item paths he will be a viable pick again.
Still no reason to pick him unless you need a main tanker though.


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MiniNotMe

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
When Lulu and Janna could lane and get gold she pushed Annie out of mid lane - these characters have gone insane with normal gold multiple times when allowed to solo lane. Now we COULD see a world where one of these characters can solo and we won't have to gut it - one definite advantage.

These characters should be about SUPPORT. If they're about damage, they're not support at all - they're mages.
I don't have problem with reduce AP scaling, the problem I have is the utility you give. why get AP if you can just get "Zeke's Herald", which do a lot better job with lower price, and lulu should just get Rylai's and forget about AP. Taric passive change seems unnecessary, cool down for all skill and you increase cool down on every skill that seems redundant.


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Orghak The Great

Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So you want all supports to turn into mages? Because that's what damage on these characters makes (and then you just nuke with them like AP mids).
Bad move Major Faggot, instead of addressing his point you defer to a vague, generic, preconceived notion that "supports cannot be mages."

You're living in your own little world.

Fiddles and Annie have better damage and have better CC than any other Support can ever dream of. Fix it and stop acting like an 8 year old because "supports can't do damage."


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Silentcoyote

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Stupid GD taking season 4 changes in context of season 3. They see a .1 decrease in ratios and lose their ****ing minds.
Meanwhile they have items that build into support items AND provide gold all game incoming while their ward load is removed too. I won't be surprised if Supports need to be nerfed after these changes.


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Wishing Umbreon

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Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Let me speak to this a little;

In the initial reveal, we were talking about the new gold flow for supports - more gold, items and general "agency" being something long overdue for Support characters (in this context, Soraka, Sona, Lulu, Taric, Janna and Nami) who have been overworked and underfed despite actual impact or performance.

We now have a world of characters who have been only balanced to have no gold now having quite a bit of gold! This comes with a few truths:

1) The old support balance base lines no longer are balanced and valid, anymore than if we increased Marksmen, Fighter or Mage gold by the same amount would be.

2) Supports have been previously defined as "characters who function well with no gold." Now that's no longer the case, overtuned/undertuned mages (if we'd not made changes) is a bad identity. By introducing support scaling, supports become MORE supportive through gold - either through acquisition of active items or AP scaling on utility. This is all done specifically to not have AP Mages and Supports fight each other in a raw numbers perspective, and instead provide supports with scaling that fits their role of helping people and working with their team.

3) Looking at these changes, seeing "NERFS" as the takeaway is...well, I don't know how to put it....insane. One of the patch notes could be "increased income by 3000-6000 gold per game". We actually were very conservative on these champion changes in an effort to protect supports from obsoletion (and will react aggressively if that becomes the case in practice).

A glance at the patch notes can read like a nerf, if you ignore the context or associated changes. AP Mids may have additional viability bottom lane, though our changes are specifically to bulwark against that.

Support needed satisfaction, a more fleshed-out identity of "helper," and a place in the game that's real and valid. That's the entire premise of the preseason support changes.

EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?
Upvoted just for that. This is preseason and season 4 has huge changes so I expect things to be crazy. As a support main, I'm willing to deal with being underpowered for a month if it means actually having items next season.


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Ratastok

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silentcoyote View Post
Stupid GD taking season 4 changes in context of season 3. They see a .1 decrease in ratios and lose their ****ing minds.
Meanwhile they have items that build into support items AND provide gold all game incoming while their ward load is removed too. I won't be surprised if Supports need to be nerfed after these changes.
Only supports that will be nerfed are going to be the AP mages that are played as support.


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R3d Anonymous

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orghak The Great View Post
Bad move Major Faggot, instead of addressing his point you defer to a vague, generic, preconceived notion that "supports cannot be mages."

You're living in your own little world.

Fiddles and Annie have better damage and have better CC than any other Support can ever dream of. Fix it and stop acting like an 8 year old because "supports can't do damage."
This.


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TheUltimate3

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pazuzoo View Post
It's not about "wanting to do big damage", but if you can throw something that brings some utility to laning and team fights as well as big damage, then why wouldn't you take that over a typical support?
That's what I'm saying. But for reasons only the gods understand, Riot is under the impression that the issue is that people want traditional supports to do damage.

The damage issue was brought up because nerfing their damage further was more like adding insult to injury because they already did less damage than utility mages, but they ate damage nerfs after a few of them got their utility bases nerfed to compensate for them scaling, then nerfed that scaling just to be sure. So now they have to start off far weaker than utility mages and work their way up to be what they are on live, while the utility mages get to be the AP carries they were meant to be.

Like dafuq kind of logic is that.