Bye Bye Supports

First Riot Post
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TheUltimate3

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Ok based on Morello's words.

If a support champion can do damage as well as utility, its a mage and thus cannot do damage, which is perfectly fine.

But a mage that can do damage with utility is a utility mage, it is its perfectly fine to have damage so high that it outscales the pitiful scaling of CC supports have because lawl, they can't be mages.

Seriously did the Deve Team's brains devolve into that of pre-schooler in the past 2 months? How is this argument going over your your heads?

The issue is not about support champions being unable to do damage, its that they have to compete in a position with champions that are allowed to do damage and have equal or better CC than them. How is that a hard concept to grasp?


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Jikker

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Maybe supports can actually start buying support items?

Although I will really miss my epic vision wars. I considered them my specialty as a support ^_^


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Zinwrath

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I can understand that, but I don't know how else to respond to her other than saying she's been getting a ton of use and has consistently the highest support winrate at 56%. So constant nerfs, but seems like we've been pretty kind to her overall.
I think I speak for the entire lol community when I say, we'd rather you release them in their op state so we can experience them being op and complain about it and then flame you for not realizing how OP they were when you launched them. Like zyra, zyra was a perfect launch, or xin....please do this more in the future. Its the only way to make us happy briefly before hating you.


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Rivini

Senior Member

11-20-2013

The whole thing about how some supports are "ungankable" and thus shouldn't be allowed to play in a solo lane annoys me. That's the main reason why they receive such nerfs in order to stay bot. There are many non-support champions who are ungankable, but that's perfectly fine because they're not labeled as "supports"?

I just feel that traditional supports are unfairly demonized.

I've heard from PBE testers that Lulu is fine, but the others... especially Janna... poor Janna. The utility ratios across the board seem extremely low at the expense of sizable damage and heal nerfs, which will basically mean playing traditional supports as anything other than support is "wrong" and "naughty," according to Riot.

That said, I have faith that appropriate adjustments will be made throughout the pre-season period. As it currently stands with this upcoming patch, I wouldn't expect to see an increase in traditional support picks (outside of experimenting), but rather an even further increase in the mage "supports" like Fiddlesticks and Annie as time goes on.


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MiniNotMe

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Sure - it's true this stuff is pretty complex and difficult. Does the short-term Black Cleaver issue (that we then fixed) mean we shouldn't have made the changes at all? That doesn't seem like a good trade-off to me.

If the worries are true, then we'll address it to make sure it's not permanent.
Well after you change the black clever I hardly see it anymore, so riot's solution to a problem is make it useless?


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SmokingPuffin

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
3) Having not had gold in 3 years is not a counter-argument for why this class can not have damage nerfs when it should be focused on utility, which is how we will likely continue to scale them (CD's, duration, intensity, impact).
I swear, you live to troll supports. Your messaging on supports has never not been "we love to nerf supports", even when that's not really what you're doing.

I think this is a good design direction, but you're going to have to find more impactful utility scaling knobs to turn than Lulu Q, Leona W, and Nami E.

I'm not really sold on the idea that supports need damage nerfs to acquire utility buffs. Supports already generally had weak scaling, and adding gold to the support role means that the gap between supports and better scaling classes is automatically widening.


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R3d Anonymous

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Morello, if you nerf Annie as a support and it causes her viability as a mid champion to fall, I will be pretty pissed. Why? Because you could have easily solved that buffing the traditional support so they can make use of the extra gold too. Yet you will be punishing me for playing Annie mid.


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Vacus

Senior Member

11-20-2013

The Taric changes are the ones that bother me the most.


He has a passive that rewards him for weaving spells; and his spells all have long cooldowns. His SHORTEST cooldown is his W at 10 seconds. Yes, his passive reduces his CDs, so they'll be shorter than they are by straight number, but it will be very difficult to proc his passive more than once or twice per full rotation.

And then you heavily nerfed or removed his AP ratios. I get that you don't want him to be a mage, but really, he already has an armor aura that scales damage, armor to allies, and armor reduced to enemies with his own armor. He's going to build armor. A lot of armor. There was no reason to completely remove the AP ratio from W; he's never going to want to stack AP, but it would be nice if the AP on Iceborn Gauntlet felt less wasted. Or, for that matter, the AP buff from his own ult.

Rod of Ages would be a fantastic item on him if it weren't for the fact that the AP does so very little for him now; it'd give you HP to synergize with your armor and mana for sustain. Nope! AP sucks on him!


I could keep ranting for a while but I'm going to stop here. TL; DR; I agree with the general direction that supports shouldn't just be a second AP carry unless that's what you're specifically going for with your character choice. I disagree with the details. Significantly. Remember, solo lane most supports ARE ALREADY BAD.


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owlcapone

Member

11-20-2013

How does morello not understand that people have no reason to choose ****ty nerfed support characters over someone that can do damage like orianna or annie with these changes? It's been restated over and over in this thread. How is it possible to even fix this with the way you changed gold gains this season?


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Orghak The Great

Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
When Lulu and Janna could lane and get gold she pushed Annie out of mid lane - these characters have gone insane with normal gold multiple times when allowed to solo lane. Now we COULD see a world where one of these characters can solo and we won't have to gut it - one definite advantage.

These characters should be about SUPPORT. If they're about damage, they're not support at all - they're mages.
You imbecile, you think it matters what you say a champion is? If Annie is played in the Support role then she is a Support. A Support that destroys all others in her class.

Stop beating around the bush with BS rhetoric, you know just as well as we do that 2 champions completely blotting out others is imbalanced.